Topic: Detection / Masking

Here you can post your feedback from the test server and ideas about Detection / Masking
The topic will be moderated heavily, we expect mature conversation here, and constructive feedback.


On the test server
-added masking to indy bots, and detection to hauler bots.

Coming soon to the test server
-masking debuff for detectors, and decreased detecion range bonus on modules.

Things we are considering, ideas welcome:
-changes to robot bonuses, or modul fitting values.

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2 (edited by Syndic 2014-05-29 23:27:11)

Re: Detection / Masking

If you are adding masking debuff to Detector, you should add a detection debuff to Masker.

Otherwise people will just use masked Castels to do the scouting.

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Re: Detection / Masking

DEV Alf wrote:

Things we are considering, ideas welcome:

-changes to robot bonuses, or modul fitting values.

Change the kains falloff bonus, to something else?? yarr

Re: Detection / Masking

The problem with detectors and maskers is you can put them on something very cheap and very fast and be very hard to catch. That's not risk vs reward.

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Re: Detection / Masking

The proposed detector changes are fine. It was a little OP before. This still makes it viable but allows masking to be more effective.

Using maskers on lights is a great idea, but the cost is obviously decreased vision range. This is a fair trade off IMO. With the added bonus that a masked light is hunted by masked ewars since the light Ewar has at least +200 range to see masked light before light sees him.

No change to masking. There's enough risk already. Things don't have to be more difficult. PvP needs a variety of styles from the hit and run, small gang roam, and blob v blob. Anything that makes PvP easier tends to streamline it to blob v blob.

Re: Detection / Masking

+1

I think the islands is small so this is not bad move. Masker debuff also can work, nothing wrong with that. You wont use maskers because you dont see far with that (still with god extension you see far more distance than masker.).

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Re: Detection / Masking

I would like to suggest to extend masking mchanics instead of rebalance current one. In my opinion everything is fine with current one besides few possible tweaks.

It would be wonderfull if bot will see the "?" mark on radar when masking robot appears on detcting edge of detecting bot.

"small" or "large" row will appear on radar if masking bot will come closer and then if enemy bot will be in closest detecting range, detecting bot will see full info about robot.

Its just an example. the point is to have several different detecting radiuses in detecting range.

It will bring more divercity in pvp, obviously.

Re: Detection / Masking

Alexadar wrote:

I would like to suggest to extend masking mchanics instead of rebalance current one. In my opinion everything is fine with current one besides few possible tweaks.

It would be wonderfull if bot will see the "?" mark on radar when masking robot appears on detcting edge of detecting bot.

"small" or "large" row will appear on radar if masking bot will come closer and then if enemy bot will be in closest detecting range, detecting bot will see full info about robot.

Its just an example. the point is to have several different detecting radiuses in detecting range.

It will bring more divercity in pvp, obviously.

+1
thats basicly what i have suggested already in most topics abou this.

create a difference between radar range and "identification range" a kind of LoD system for the landmark list.

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9 (edited by Burial 2014-05-30 20:51:07)

Re: Detection / Masking

Jita wrote:

The problem with detectors and maskers is you can put them on something very cheap and very fast and be very hard to catch. That's not risk vs reward.

That's exactly the problem. Make them harder to fit, heavier and require more accumulator.

10

Re: Detection / Masking

Burial wrote:
Jita wrote:

The problem with detectors and maskers is you can put them on something very cheap and very fast and be very hard to catch. That's not risk vs reward.

That's exactly the problem. Make them harder to fit, heavier and require more accumulator.

This is the way to go

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Re: Detection / Masking

I think it would be pretty cool if masker moved your robot into a "stealth mode" where your accumulator depletes, your speed is significantly decreased to 20-30kph to simulate "sneaking" and after decloaking you couldn't target anything for 15-20 seconds.

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Re: Detection / Masking

Syndic wrote:

I think it would be pretty cool if masker moved your robot into a "stealth mode" where your accumulator depletes, your speed is significantly decreased to 20-30kph to simulate "sneaking" and after decloaking you couldn't target anything for 15-20 seconds.

Fresh idea. We need more of these as opposed to simply "nerf all"

Sparking to other games

13 (edited by Burial 2014-05-31 10:45:26)

Re: Detection / Masking

Complete reform of detection and masking would probably not be a bad idea. The stealth idea is pretty interesting and detectors could be changed to un-masking those robots.

I'm not too sure about the drawbacks of being in stealth though, should think of something that cripples all the bots the same(talking about accumulator).

Detection vs masking and visibility mechanics are very interesting in Perpetuum, but without detectors and maskers they are more or less useless in combat situations. Combat robot with the worst detection sees another with best masking at 600m and mechs and heavies going head to head see each other at or over 1000 meters so there's really close to no way of using those mechanics in combat.

IF the devs would reform detectors/maskers they should also balance base robot detection and masking values to keep things interesting.

Re: Detection / Masking

syndics idea seems to be centered around only a single use for masking, and thats scouting.

the thing described in his post sounds like something that wouldn't require a module at all. In Mechwarrior thats called "shutdown" and can be done by any mech.

Burial - accumulator consumption does not cripple all robots the same. for example green bots don't need the accumulator, and they can regenerate it fast. a Seth on the other hand needs several minutes to recover from accumulator loss, even with lots of legslots dedicated just to that task, and the module that was initially designed for laser bots was nerfed before release.

also:

Burial wrote:

Complete reform of detection and masking would probably not be a bad idea. The stealth idea is pretty interesting and detectors could be changed to un-masking those robots.

thats what i am saying all the time.

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Re: Detection / Masking

Rex Amelius wrote:
Syndic wrote:

I think it would be pretty cool if masker moved your robot into a "stealth mode" where your accumulator depletes, your speed is significantly decreased to 20-30kph to simulate "sneaking" and after decloaking you couldn't target anything for 15-20 seconds.

Fresh idea. We need more of these as opposed to simply "nerf all"


Do it.  Have a Class that has no locking penalty after un masked.

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Re: Detection / Masking

Current build makes Detector module completely redundant and superficial. The Masker is far too overpowered in comparison to a Detector. If you implement this, you are effectively removing Detectors from the game and making Maskers as mandatory as lightweight frames and sensor-amps.

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17 (edited by Ville 2014-06-12 23:16:17)

Re: Detection / Masking

Can only see a masked light ewar at 700 M now and the ewar is faster.  Detection bot will always die now if caught out in open terrain.  On the test server with this current mechanic you have, it will not be used in game.

The only use for a detector will be to hug a station and detect or jump to an external then detect and jump out.

You will no longer want to use a detector to scout an island.

Also keeping a detector on a mech in the middle of a pack is a bad idea.  The signal masking debuff will allow an enemy fleet to be able to see the mech in the group from 2500+. 

The Only thing that should have been done is turn the Detectors down a bit and maskers down a bit in tandem.   

Increase the CPU of the detector module (T4) and a (T1~T4) demob could not be fit on a light mk2.  Not crazy but like 25 CPU over.

The current build for a castel mk2 detector is:

T4LWF + T4Small Shield + T2P Med Aux accum in legs
T4 Detector + T4 Demob

All you need to do is balance the above where the Demob can't fit on it and GG.

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Re: Detection / Masking

The detector is part of the problem (being able to scan large areas).

The larger part of the problem is the demob.  Castel mk2s have a great shield tank against anything with guns.  So if the Castel mk2 can intercept you with a demob, an assault but can not kill it solo, and typically speak a pack of assaults of mechs can't kill it with out neuts.

A little exercise, I want you to try.  Take 4 people and go to the test server.  3 people in assault bots and 1 in a castel mk2.

The assault bots should be normally fit.  Sensor Amps, Tuner, demob, LWF, Armor repair, and something else light plate or active hardener.

Use those 3 assault bots to run around the island.  Then use the Castel mk2 to interdict with the assault bots and see if the castel to limit their mobility for a sustained amount of time, basically (1 Minute.)  Then try to kill the castel.

Tell us how it goes.

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Re: Detection / Masking

Masker needs an equal 30% nerf to balance the detector nerf

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Re: Detection / Masking

Make detection/masking fokken DYNAMIC.

It can be next step in game evolution in regards to detection, starting from 1000 range on release, to dynamic radius range (what we have right now), to dynamic detection/masking.

For example, make certain plants influence your detection/masking, both increase and decrease different values. At least it would make sense to plant or destroy the plants in fights, it will create a lot more room for strategy and planning of big fights, roflstomp ambushes and so on. We have incubators for all kinds of plants, but they are hardly ever used for anything, because they don't have any value right now.

We have a ton of useless buildings on Beta too, why not make it so that some of them increase your masking or detection value when you are within/next to them? Like that Mount Yula in Novastrov that has a huge station on top of it, why not make it increase your detection value to observe the surrounding territory? Kinda makes sense logic-wise and adds some value to that location. Same goes for a lot of other buildings if being next to them increase robot's masking value, that can be used for hiding/ambushing/scouting. It would add varying geographical value to islands as well, as each island would be different in that regard due to current building locations.

Some other modules, like vector or cone detection (not sure if it possible; basically, detecting in a straight line (arbitrary let's say 500m wide and 3km long) or in a cone in front of the robot), but I'm not sure if the engine actually allows it. This would add more skill and variability in detection, as it would make backstabbing and hiding easier if you know the variables of enemy or friendly detection.

Other modules like massive increase in masking for long cooldown (like 30 sec for 180 sec cooldown?), would also add more dynamic elements to the detection/masking game, as well as could be used creatively in big fights or roams and ganks. Big cooldown allows it to be used EITHER for initiation OR escape, but not both at the same time. Escaping is even harder as masking doesn't reset the lock. At the same time this involves many other variables that need to be held in mind, such as speed, enemy position, enemy movement vector, terrain, ECMing for escape, etc etc - damn, that adds so much juice and skill to tactical and strategical planning if implemented right. Tweak current module values to allow and balance the implementation of these, and you are set.

Ideas like these for dynamic detection can be thrown at you in large quantities, if you guys only ask and actually care about it. This is something that would bring meta to the whole new level and add another layer of competition and skill.

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21 (edited by Kaldenines 2014-06-12 22:25:19)

Re: Detection / Masking

+1 for plants affecting masking
+1 for buildings affecting detection/masking
+1 for maskers (but not detectors) with strong effects but long cooldowns
+1 for anything that is more varied than just constant detection in a sphere

+1
-Confucius

Re: Detection / Masking

+1 for the first constructive CIR post.

directional detection sounds good, but as you say, the engine probalby doesnt alow it. i could imagine that you would need to lock a ground tile to define a direction for a scan.
give it ammo and its on par with the rest of the games "scanning" mechanics

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Re: Detection / Masking

Tested:

Masked Light ewar can see a detector at 1100 M(ish) While a Detector sees the Masked ewar at 700.

-If you intend to keep the debuff masking mechanic, the debuff needs to be dropped.  so a light ewar sees the detection unit at the same time, at L10 skills w/  +5% spark.  If not the light ewar can kite the detector all day long.

-Masking/Detection need to be dropped in tandem.  If you plan on dropping the detector 24%  Then drop maskers 24%.

-Simple fix is increasing the CPU of the detection module.

Light Ewar doesn't see a masked cast MK2 passive detector till 400 M.

With Server lag, calculates to 350 M.  If you aren't paying attention by the time a masked castel mk2 can tackle you is 8 seconds.

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Re: Detection / Masking

Two detector bots see each other during detect cycles at about 3K M. <--Lol

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25 (edited by Kaldenines 2014-06-13 15:30:11)

Re: Detection / Masking

Ville, could you elaborate on why you think that the things you have listed are problems?

e.g. why does a detector have to see a light ewar at the same time?

+1
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