Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Burial wrote:

Is it still growing? I've been eyeballing Steam chart for couple of weeks now: http://steamcharts.com/app/223410


Dev blog says it is. And all those little seed steaminglings need time to grow into redwoods.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Lemon wrote:

Can we slow down on the doom & gloom posting. Alf created multiple threads to request feedback and open dialogue on this. He could have easily dropped back in to balance with rapid changes being implemented.

@ Burial & Anni

If the dev's had those statistics that already exist on the API in a mild form you would see a golden trend. ALL of my fleets have 3-5 DPS that equate to 3/4 of the damage in a entire flight and did 3/4 of the killing blows.  Once I have my dps I just run everything else under the sun (generally what keeps them alive the easiest)

If e-war was such a problem I would need to actually use more than a few dps bots wouldn't I?

I can agree to the idea of modifying tuners and possibly introducing some sort of 'active' counter to demob/ECM/suppresion that can be pushed as a 'oh *** button'. This would require substantial drawbacks (accum/durability loss) and a good 2.5-3 minute cooldown. (WoW PvP trinket?)

It would break the perma jam but this is equally as deadly if not more than the current situation in the hands of a vet.

@ Tux

It was never about how much EW on the field but who you forced your enemy to e-war that won the fight.

agreed - DEVs have started dialoque, and doing stuff on PTS... so, instead of testing the stuff for real, like always requested, someone does just look at the numbers and started whining... before its even test-able.

there are mild statistics in form of killmails - yet those killmails do not include extensionlevels and equip used, nor do they really allow analysing what happened. I would suggest that the DEVs bring back that project for a meta-data recorder and a replay option for the Balancing DEV to review whats happening ingame, and why it is happening.

Didn't we have that module some time ago... called active ECCM. doing exactly what you wrote? removing any buff from the robot (including positive ones), killing all your accumulator for the 10s duration it had, and a 5min cooldown - and made you buff-immune for the duration. also removed all locks on yourself.
was called the GTFO mode by pvpers...

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

53 (edited by Syndic 2014-05-31 03:18:08)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Annihilator wrote:
Syndic wrote:

I can very quickly and very practically explain and demonstrate that EWar cannot completely shut down someone. Alf, give me 10 minutes on the test server and you will understand.

since you have bolded that - you say that you cannot completely shut down someone who has no eccm fit, and no armor plate on a heavy mech, assault or industrial bot, that is not supported by anyone, and has not maxed out extension in locktime ?

I said that I can explain and demonstrate how EWar cannot completely shut down someone, in ~10 minutes on the test server.

In your case, I will be more then happy to demonstrate how EWar cannot completely shut down someone on the live server. You bring the EWar, I'll bring the DPS. Pick a time and place and try to shut me down with EWar.

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54 (edited by Burial 2014-05-31 12:21:18)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Lemon wrote:

It was never about how much EW on the field but who you forced your enemy to e-war that won the fight.

I think you accidentally just confirmed the problem. In a nutshell, EW wants to get to DPS or other critical bots and shut them down and enemy EW tries to stop them and get to the same bots on other side. Once one side has EW superiority to deal with EW and shut other sides critical bots down, that side wins.

Counter to EW is more or longer range EW* and that's pretty much it. Counter to practically ANY other fleet composition is EW. Why do you think we are stuck with the EW meta for years? Don't you want to see variety of working compositions? Right now if anyone ever tries something interesting, it's more or less always countered by just bringing more EW.

Some self-centered muppets(not talking about you, Lemon) might think I'm after turning their precious XYZ composition useless but I'm only after balance. EW should not end up complete rubbish, but it needs to come down from being trump of all cards.

* Before you say fast lock Grophos, they are still very weak to suppressors. 200m locking range, GG?

Rex Amelius wrote:

And ECCM does not need 3% - outrageous

Even 3% is too marginal and won't change anything if that is the only element changed. ECCM is 75 and that would only take it to 97,5. Mech with 1 ECCM gets jammed 50,7% of times. With the new ECCM it's 45,5%.. laughable buff at best.

I would approach it by keeping the extension bonus at 3% per level but also increasing the base ECCM strength to at least 100. The mech from the example will be jammed 39,6% of times now.

55 (edited by Syndic 2014-05-31 12:22:02)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Burial wrote:

I think you accidentally just confirmed the problem. In a nutshell, EW wants to get to DPS or other critical bots and shut them down and enemy EW tries to stop them and get to the same bots on other side. Once one side has EW superiority to shut other sides critical bots down, that side wins.

Counter to EW is more or longer range EW* and that's pretty much it. Counter to practically ANY other fleet composition is EW. Why do you think we are stuck with the EW meta for years? Don't you want to see variety of working compositions? Right now if anyone ever tries something interesting, it's more or less always countered by just bringing more EW.

Some self-centered muppets(not talking about you, Lemon) might think I'm after turning their precious XYZ composition useless but I'm only after balance. EW should not end up complete rubbish, but it needs to come down from being trump of all cards.

* Before you say fast lock Grophos, they are still very weak to suppressors. 200m locking range, GG?

That is so far off the mark. Is that really how you think EWar works and is countered? Wow... Explains a lot.

The fool-proof counter to EW is ECCM. Two work even better.

Devs if you're against people not being able to shoot or see things, you might consider removing interference and interference launchers too. The launchers are AOE EWar after all.

Burial wrote:
Rex Amelius wrote:

And ECCM does not need 3% - outrageous

Even 3% is too marginal and won't change anything if that is the only element changed. ECCM is 75 and that would only take it to 97,5.

Mech with 1 ECCM gets jammed 50,7% of times. With the new ECCM it's 45,5%.. laughable buff at best. I would approach it by keeping the extension bonus at 3% per level but also increasing the base ECCM strength to at least 100. The mech from the example will be jammed 39,6% of times now.

And why would anyone fly EWar if the chance to be useful is ~35%?

Guns and reps are useful 99% of the time.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
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56 (edited by Burial 2014-05-31 12:43:25)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Lobo wrote:

The counter to E-war if you haven't guessed it is more or longer range e-war...

Coming from your side.

Syndic wrote:

And why would anyone fly EWar if the chance to be useful is ~35%?

35% per module. How many modules can MK2 EW mech fit?

Syndic wrote:

Guns and reps are useful 99% of the time.

Guns and remote repairs are 0% useful when jammed out, duh.

If you want genuine responses, you need to give genuine responses yourself.

57 (edited by Syndic 2014-05-31 13:05:16)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

There's no "my side" here, this is the testing forum.

35% per module, even shotgun-fit with 5 ECM modules doesn't make it worthwhile vs 2 ECCMs.

The feedback you are giving is consistent not in improving game balance, but in making Vagabonds and Zeniths redundant robots that are a liability.

The overall game is extremely well balanced, with the exception of ECM tunings which are understandably OP. However, the exact nature of their OP-status is debatable since the people who use them have been getting wiped everywhere in PVP as evident on the killboard for the last 2 months.

With these changes, Heavies become the go-to answer to everything since EWar and EnWar is the only thing that reliably neuters them.

Which makes the most natural useful role for a steam-newbie is sit in a termis/riveler and repair vets. Some people enjoy doing that, but most people don't.

Dear Devs, this is one of your 2-month old steam newbies:
http://killboard.sequer.nl/index.php?a= … nt_id=6438

Think of the newbies.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
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The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

58 (edited by Lemon 2014-05-31 14:14:18)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Burial wrote:
Lemon wrote:

It was never about how much EW on the field but who you forced your enemy to e-war that won the fight.

I think you accidentally just confirmed the problem. In a nutshell, EW wants to get to DPS or other critical bots and shut them down and enemy EW tries to stop them and get to the same bots on other side. Once one side has EW superiority to deal with EW and shut other sides critical bots down, that side wins.

Counter to EW is more or longer range EW* and that's pretty much it. Counter to practically ANY other fleet composition is EW. Why do you think we are stuck with the EW meta for years? Don't you want to see variety of working compositions? Right now if anyone ever tries something interesting, it's more or less always countered by just bringing more EW.

Some self-centered muppets(not talking about you, Lemon) might think I'm after turning their precious XYZ composition useless but I'm only after balance. EW should not end up complete rubbish, but it needs to come down from being trump of all cards.

* Before you say fast lock Grophos, they are still very weak to suppressors. 200m locking range, GG?

I follow your logic but if I still bring 3-1 ratio of bots to DPS your in the same situation. I could bring 3 DPS bots and 9 iktus or 9 repairers and cause the same thing.

If You fail to bring the counter to my majority you will get overwhelmed once it is in place man. What I am doing is critical massing and forcing you to do 1 thing and 1 thing only to beat me. If you fail to do that then I win every time through attrition.

This is the same mentality behind what made Styxs' M2S gropho spam so strong.

I mean when you discuss anything below 20vs20 you have 10-15 players per side that can run ANY bot across their 4-8 accounts due to EP. You have cookie cutter fleets on demand of fully skilled max fit bots. We all have  a green pilot and miners and a e-war on top of our normal DPS.

EDIT: Changing e-war does not stop what is currently happening in PvP with one side being able to consistently win. This will modify what is used to win but the results will still be the same. You will only guarantee my new fleet compositions success by directly making e-war less effective. (This is the only true counter)

Lets keep the changes small and focused.

Undefeated 2013
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59 (edited by Ozy 2014-05-31 16:13:36)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Syndic wrote:

However, the exact nature of their OP-status is debatable since the people who use them have been getting wiped everywhere in PVP as evident on the killboard for the last 2 months.

How is this relevant when one side has been outnumbering everyone else as consistently is it is winning?

--
That aside, I do think that starting with tuners is a good step. Modify them, let us test them out, and then see what kind of feedback it garners. In general, I think using ewar as counters to DPS and everything else is fine. The caveat is that ECCMs don't work quite well enough, but a thorough nerf of tuners could fix this. Needs to be tested. If it doesn't, limiting the amount of ECMs that can affect a bot to two would be the next preferable step, in my opinion. If that's not an option, a blanket buff to ECCM efficacy could be considered, but finding the appropriate numbers is tough. ECCM buff and tuner nerf aren't necessarily beneficial implement at the same time (i.e., test tuner nerf, then test eccm buff--maybe eventually find a middle ground).

Lastly, I'd REALLY like to see the application of ECMs/Suppressors moved from fully random to pseudo-random. This is neither a buff nor a nerf, but a quality of life change that would benefit both the ewar bot and the bot it's attacking.

Edit: By the way, there was a slight error in the entropy math on the sheet (wrong cell reference). It's been corrected now.

60 (edited by Syndic 2014-05-31 16:31:33)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Fitting x2 Sensor Amps and x2 ECCM's specializes your robot to be strong against EWar, but you trade off damage/range to do it.

It takes 2-3 seconds for a Heavy to re-lock a target. ECM has a cycletime of 10 seconds. You need 5 ECM's to proc 100% of the time in evenly spaced distribution to achieve "jamlock".

Current system in-game is perfectly balanced, ECM Tuning needs looking at but that's it.

By nerfing EWar you don't create a situation where 5 Heavies run around killing 15 EWar with impunity, you create a situation where those 15 swap to Heavy & Ictus & RR and violate you even harder then before.

EWar can be countered by a lot of things. Dedicated RR and EnWar cannot be countered, you either bring more RR and EnWar then the other guys or you die.

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61 (edited by Burial 2014-05-31 17:36:05)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

You fit 2 ECCM and you will still get jammed and suppressed nearly half the time. This is THE problem and having double amped base locking time is not enough to reduce suppressor effects to manageable levels. Remember now, you are talking about heavies specifically built for anti EW that are still getting jacked up.

Another problem: There's no way to reliably drop EW mechs. They have speed, range and LOS advantage. They can go full rack of EW modules, get RSAs from another EW mech and still hit 650m optimal for Vagas and 900m for Zeniths with EW Nexus.. That's with FULL rack of EW modules per bot, no range extenders.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Burial wrote:

You fit 2 ECCM and you still will get jammed and suppressed nearly half the time. This is THE problem and having double amped base locking time is not enough to reduce suppressor effects to manageable levels.

Once those "anti-ew" heavies start to drop, the EW becomes even more concentrated since there's nearly no way to drop EW bots effectively. They have speed, range and no LOS advantage.

Your not getting hit by ewar half the time.

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63 (edited by Ozy 2014-05-31 17:40:05)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Syndic wrote:

You need 5 ECM's to proc 100% of the time in evenly spaced distribution to achieve "jamlock".

You're being very literal about a bot being jammed out. A heavy with 2 amps, 2 eccms a range extender and a tuning does pretty horrible damage, relative to a more balanced fit. If that heavy gets jammed so it can only bring 50% of that firepower to bear, it's effectively not relevant anymore and the ewar has done its job.

Also, right now there's the expectation that all dps must specialise/make trade-offs, but generally speaking, the same expectation isn't true for en and ewar (you mentioned yourself that your corp doesn't even use tuners).

Edit: To prevent escalation, the last sentence mostly refers to easy availability of RSAs and the lack of tuners in most ewar fits.

64 (edited by Burial 2014-05-31 17:09:42)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

@ Ville

41% or 42% for ECM and 48% for suppressor.

65 (edited by Syndic 2014-05-31 17:48:54)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

If the EWar doesn't jam, it wasted it's cycle. (10 seconds)

If the Heavy gets jammed, it wasted it's cycle. (2-3 seconds)

Heavy with 230 SS (2 ECCMs) will get jammed 30-35% of the time without the changes.

That means the EWar has 65-70% chance to waste it's cycle (be irrelevant).

That's balance.

Your complaints are with ECM Tuning raising % to higher levels and I definitely agree the ECM Tuning needs heavy disadvantages to compensate for that 35% increase it brings.

However, you're asking the Devs to give you a Heavy that is impossibly hard to jam without needing to fit EWar defense, so you can stack tuners/range and not care.

That is not balance, that is you asking for an I-Win button.

What you don't understand however, is that if EWar is unviable then DPS & Reps & EnWar is the only viable thing - meaning all those EWars will now be different accounts shooting you, neuting you, and making it impossible for you to kill anything.

You're asking that the whole game balance is destroyed, entire bot-types and playstyles completely invalidated, all for the sake of you 5 guys not wanting to diversify/recruit/train other people. Head-first through a brick wall.

Ozy wrote:
Syndic wrote:

You need 5 ECM's to proc 100% of the time in evenly spaced distribution to achieve "jamlock".

You're being very literal about a bot being jammed out. A heavy with 2 amps, 2 eccms a range extender and a tuning does pretty horrible damage, relative to a more balanced fit. If that heavy gets jammed so it can only bring 50% of that firepower to bear, it's effectively not relevant anymore and the ewar has done its job.

Also, right now there's the expectation that all dps must specialise/make trade-offs, but generally speaking, the same expectation isn't true for en and ewar (you mentioned yourself that your corp doesn't even use tuners).

Edit: To prevent escalation, the last sentence mostly refers to easy availability of RSAs and the lack of tuners in most ewar fits.

But our ewars do make the trade-off. We sacrifice our hW strength by choosing not to fit tuners (which are overpowered pieces of s*** anyway). We fit other things on our EWars.

If sensor-amps are bothering you and you really want your tuners, for gods sake fit 3 tuners 3 ECCM's on your heavies and RSA each other just like EWars do. You will be un-jammable, problem solved.

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66 (edited by Rex Amelius 2014-05-31 17:55:29)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Ozy, are you suggesting that a more balanced fit is more tuners for dps? Fitting multiple types of head slots is what balance is all about, CHOICES. You cant have full tuner PVE fits for PVP and expect to win.

Also keep in mind that ECM/Sup mods are head slots. You get 4-6 guns in chassis while ewar bot fits have to make ALL relevant mods fit in head  slots.

Ewar is balanced. This whole issue is about 5-10 guys complaining it's not.

Again, scrap EW tuners completely. Head slots hard enough to fit as is.

Plus you guys forget that with follow bot nerf it's just that much harder to make choices with head slots.

Edit: fyi I have high skill Ictus pilot waiting to go. Break out your spreadsheets and start preping your "nerf" Ictus arguments.

Sparking to other games

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Syndic wrote:

If sensor-amps are bothering you and you really want your tuners, for gods sake fit 3 tuners 3 ECCM's on your heavies and RSA each other just like EWars do. You will be un-jammable, problem solved.

This has to be the worst suggestion ever.

68 (edited by Rex Amelius 2014-05-31 18:06:17)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Burial wrote:
Syndic wrote:

If sensor-amps are bothering you and you really want your tuners, for gods sake fit 3 tuners 3 ECCM's on your heavies and RSA each other just like EWars do. You will be un-jammable, problem solved.

This has to be the worst suggestion ever.

yikes

Effective is effective. Perhaps you just don't like the color and icon on those mods? How is stacking ECCM a terrible suggestion when you're so willing to stack other mods? Stubbornness?

Burial, you make argument often that ewar mechs get RSA from teammate. We have to because head slots hard as hell to fit. Why can't your heavy mech get RSA from teammate?

Sparking to other games

69 (edited by Burial 2014-05-31 18:46:38)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Why it's bad suggestion?

1. 3 ECCM is hardly "un-jammable"
2. Start relying on jammable friends and drop damage... to fit damage tuners.

I understand what he was trying to say but it came out very absurd.

Rex Amelius wrote:

Burial, you make argument often that ewar mechs get RSA from teammate. We have to because head slots hard as hell to fit. Why can't your heavy mech get RSA from teammate?

I'm sure it has nothing to do with the two empty, otherwise useless chassis slots. Yes, heavies can get RSAs from team-mates, but it's not nearly as convenient as it is for EW mechs that seem to be built for it.

Anyway, what modules do you think I want to stack and where did I say it?

70

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Syndic wrote:

You're asking that the whole game balance is destroyed, entire bot-types and playstyles completely invalidated, all for the sake of you 5 guys not wanting to diversify/recruit/train other people. Head-first through a brick wall.

This is *** ridiculous. Stop ignoring what's being said and making anti-corp BS out of it. I know you like arguing from a heavily biased perspective and with a slant for propaganda, but can't we leave this crap out of the test forum? No one's asking for iwin buttons, especially as ewar changes will not change anything for us as corp or on the field.


Syndic wrote:

If the EWar doesn't jam, it wasted it's cycle. (10 seconds) If the Heavy gets jammed, it wasted it's cycle. (2-3 seconds)

Heavy with 230 SS (2 ECCMs) will get jammed 30-35% of the time without the changes.

That means the EWar has 65-70% chance to waste it's cycle (be irrelevant).

That's balance.

Your complaints are with ECM Tuning raising % to higher levels and I definitely agree the ECM Tuning needs heavy disadvantages to compensate for that 35% increase it brings.

However, you're asking the Devs to give you a Heavy that is impossibly hard to jam without needing to fit EWar defense, so you can stack tuners/range and not care.

If Ewar has a 65% chance to waste a cycle on a single module, it has a 60% chance to at least jam once when using two modules. When using three modules, it has a 75% chance to jam at least once. Also, people are NOT asking for heavies to easily fend off ewar, but for bots that actually go for the ewar counter to be more effective than they are now. At least, that's what i'm asking for. This doesn't only include heavies, by the way. A Mech with a similar fit is also still pretty ***. Below are some logs from the test-server.

Kain MK2 (EM Guns, 2 Amps, 2 ECCMs) vs Vaga MK2 (4 ECMs, 1 Tuner, 1 RE--only 3 of the ECMs were used against the target):
http://pastebin.com/ZpbZ38cu

Mesmer Mk2 (EM Guns, 2 Amps, 2 ECCMs, 1 RE) vs Vaga Mk2 (4 ECMs, 1 Tuner, 1 RE--only 3 of the ECMs were used against the target):
http://pastebin.com/SW6VWBHe

Yes, the Vaga was injecting, but the time the bots need to kill the ewar isn't really the main point here. Rather, how many of the ECMs still make it through. Maybe the primary issue is the tuning, which is why i suggesting messing with it only at first and then expanding to other (reasonable) modifications.


Rex Amelius wrote:

Ozy, are you suggesting that a more balanced fit is more tuners for dps? Fitting multiple types of head slots is what balance is all about, CHOICES. You cant have full tuner PVE fits for PVP and expect to win.

I'd regard the 2 amps + 2 eccms as specialised anti-ewar headslot config. "More balanced" would be stuff that focuses more on the natural strengths of the heavies (i.e., more emphasis on range/shield or rep-tanks/damage, with maybe at most 1 eccm).

71 (edited by Rex Amelius 2014-05-31 19:31:40)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

I'm sure it has nothing to do with the two empty, otherwise useless chassis slots. Yes, heavies can get RSAs from team-mates, but it's not nearly as convenient as it is for EW mechs that seem to be built for it.

Anyway, what modules do you think I want to stack and where did I say it?

Well those "useless" chassis slots don't RSA the bots they're fit on. Perhaps ewar mechs need buff to make guns more useful. Ewar mechs are not the only bots that fit RSA. There are plenty of designated demobers who can fit RSA for your heavy. Plus each heavy can fit at least one RSA even with full stack of guns.

You simply admit that an ewar mech is useless alone. You need 2 by 2 to be most effective. Third man is out I guess. As Gunner often says you need Devs to nerf Teamwork and communication. Plus what do you think happens when one of the two gets jammed? If ewar 2 by 2 mechs are relying on each other for RSA they risk both effectively being useless when just one gets jammed! Follow nerf 'balanced' that issue. Note quotation as you got one nerf but appear to need more.

TLDR do not pretend that ewar bots are only ones who can get RSA.

And as for tuner stacking. Don't pretend not to want to fit max damage or max rep tunings.

Sparking to other games

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Seth can't.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Burial wrote:

Seth can't.

Then issue is Buff Seth not nerf ewar into the ground. "Scapel please"

Sparking to other games

74 (edited by Burial 2014-05-31 19:39:44)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Rex Amelius wrote:

You simply admit that an ewar mech is useless alone. You need 2 by 2 to be most effective. Third man is out I guess.

As leet as you guys say you are, are you still using RSA pairs not triplets? smile

Rex Amelius wrote:

And as for tuner stacking. Don't pretend not to want to fit max damage or max rep tunings.

Lol. I don't want to fit weapon tuners or armor repair tuners, I promise.

75 (edited by Rex Amelius 2014-05-31 20:05:41)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Yes. Let's make RSA even more sensitive and do three ways. Sure a > b > c > a; now when a jammed b is still also now ineffective. And if you cross RSA such as a > bc, b > ca, etc you not only have to give up 2 locking positions but also in long range fight make 3 bots useless when 1 is jammed. Brilliant idea Burial. Thanks for letting me know about a tactic I figured out in EVE with logistics rep 7 years ago.

If you guys rely on three way you only open yourself up more and show further how useless ewar is without solid teamwork and Fleet Fitting composition.

If you stop thinking about maxing out something bot by bot and how to max out effectiveness of your fleet you will open up a whole new world. I know it's anathema for you to imagine putting one less gun on a dps bot but in dynamic fleet compositions weaken one bot a little may strengthen a fleet a lot.

Thanks for your pro tip.

Sparking to other games