101 (edited by Stranger Danger 2014-05-30 02:17:25)

Re: Detector/EW changes

This is really a facepalm moment.

The counter to our large fleet is ewar.  Go ahead nerf it.  Render a small fleet 100% worthless with no options to possibly counter a larger fleet.

So beg for them to nerf your only counter to the big fleet, that's fine, ill enjoy the tears from our large fleet of DPS and ictus that will have no counters.

We benefit from the nerf, smaller, unallied corps wont stand a chance (right now they do but no one wants to be smart about it)

Stranger Danger / Capital Punishment / Cyberdown
Pillar of the Community
Ruler of Recruit Chat
CIR Ministry of Truth

102 (edited by Gremrod 2014-05-30 02:27:49)

Re: Detector/EW changes

There are famous moves in chess. If you don't know how to counter said moves you don't change the rules of chess.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Detector/EW changes

FROM a New players eyes .....


Just finished Reading 90% of this ... after your done reading ... think .. WHO will this have the largest impact on ... NEW PLAYERS LIKE ME ... but O snap .. look the kid dosent have the points to drop into ECCM skills banked up like the vets do ... this will honestly just make the vets that much more powerful because now i cant fit out a light ECM bot and jump into the fight to at least give a hand by "target Jacking" someone .. now i will be forced to try my shakey clammey noobish hoof foot hands at some other way to assist .. O but wait ... guess what the Noob already has his points into ECM so now i must wait even longer to fit out something new .... SIGH... so in that span of time while the new steam User waits for points the vets become even stronger ... .. honestly the ECM was one of the best ways to shut down a vet but not any more ... .. CONGRATZ on the expanshion of power gap and handing vets a Beta and Gama outposts on a plate stopping our most effective counter ...

Re: Detector/EW changes

unlimited power

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

105

Re: Detector/EW changes

So, quick summary here:

1. People are tentatively positive about the masker/detector changes, but alternatives (specialised bots, racial modules, weight increase) have been suggested.

2. Everyone HATES the proposed change with resistance to ECMs on subsequent hits--this should probably be scrapped.

3. There hasn't been anyone that thought the Sensor Strength extension would be a good reason, so far. Main arguments against it are it being mandatory for pvp, creating a wider gap between newer players and vets.

4. Tuner changes are seen in a more positive light.

(5. I still think my entropy proposal should make it into the game because it's awesome).

--
What did i forget?

Re: Detector/EW changes

Tyrone Biggumz wrote:

FROM a New players eyes .....

Just finished Reading 90% of this ... after your done reading ... think .. WHO will this have the largest impact on ... NEW PLAYERS LIKE ME ... but O snap .. look the kid dosent have the points to drop into ECCM skills banked up like the vets do ... this will honestly just make the vets that much more powerful because now i cant fit out a light ECM bot and jump into the fight to at least give a hand by "target Jacking" someone .. now i will be forced to try my shakey clammey noobish hoof foot hands at some other way to assist .. O but wait ... guess what the Noob already has his points into ECM so now i must wait even longer to fit out something new .... SIGH... so in that span of time while the new steam User waits for points the vets become even stronger ... .. honestly the ECM was one of the best ways to shut down a vet but not any more ... .. CONGRATZ on the expanshion of power gap and handing vets a Beta and Gama outposts on a plate stopping our most effective counter ...

Ignorance is curable, Stupidity is not.
The "Planet of the Apes" is not science fiction, is a daily reality.
All is in "The Matrix".
See Beyond the Obvious.

107

Re: Detector/EW changes

Stranger Danger wrote:

This is really a facepalm moment.

The counter to our large fleet is ewar.  Go ahead nerf it.  Render a small fleet 100% worthless with no options to possibly counter a larger fleet.

So beg for them to nerf your only counter to the big fleet, that's fine, ill enjoy the tears from our large fleet of DPS and ictus that will have no counters.

We benefit from the nerf, smaller, unallied corps wont stand a chance (right now they do but no one wants to be smart about it)

Atm best counter to ewar is to bring more ewar. Rinse, repeat.

Have a productive day, runner!
R.I.P. Chenoa, you'll never be forgotten.
DEV Zoom: Line, sorry, I was away for christmas.
http://perp-kill.net/?m=view&id=252086

108

Re: Detector/EW changes

Line wrote:
Stranger Danger wrote:

This is really a facepalm moment.

The counter to our large fleet is ewar.  Go ahead nerf it.  Render a small fleet 100% worthless with no options to possibly counter a larger fleet.

So beg for them to nerf your only counter to the big fleet, that's fine, ill enjoy the tears from our large fleet of DPS and ictus that will have no counters.

We benefit from the nerf, smaller, unallied corps wont stand a chance (right now they do but no one wants to be smart about it)

Atm best counter to ewar is to bring more ewar. Rinse, repeat.

Really,

Can you give me a numbers example of this and we can go to the test server and do some scenario's.

I am very confident that as long as the fleets are reasonable close in numbers or beyond a dozen players to each size. Ewar's power all comes down to the fitting on a bot.

I spent months abusing a full head-slot of Repair tuners and a single demob before my enemies used e-war to slow me down.

Undefeated 2013
"Even alone you probably are one of the best" - Khader Khan
"Lemon the 1 man army .... also know as: THE TERMINATOR!" - Obi Wan
"There are people who are just better then you at doing many things at one time, some are far better then myself, far better." -Merkle

Re: Detector/EW changes

Line wrote:

Atm best counter to ewar is to bring more ewar. Rinse, repeat.


Devs ignore this terrible post. More propaganda spewed without testing.

Re: Detector/EW changes

Tund Bungler wrote:
Line wrote:

Atm best counter to ewar is to bring more ewar. Rinse, repeat.


Devs ignore this terrible post. More propaganda spewed without testing.




UMMMM .... you cant Quote a line then in the next line write ignore that quote ... thats like me holding up pics of naked chicks and saying HAY HAY YOU ALL !!! DONT LOOK AT THIS !! .. This right here in my hand .. ya ... this picture .. ya ya .. the naked one right here .. look here in my hand ... IGNORE IT .. ok .. thanks ... LOL LOL LOL

Re: Detector/EW changes

Tyrone Biggumz wrote:
Tund Bungler wrote:
Line wrote:

Atm best counter to ewar is to bring more ewar. Rinse, repeat.


Devs ignore this terrible post. More propaganda spewed without testing.




UMMMM .... you cant Quote a line then in the next line write ignore that quote ... thats like me holding up pics of naked chicks and saying HAY HAY YOU ALL !!! DONT LOOK AT THIS !! .. This right here in my hand .. ya ... this picture .. ya ya .. the naked one right here .. look here in my hand ... IGNORE IT .. ok .. thanks ... LOL LOL LOL


You can when it is objectively wrong.

Re: Detector/EW changes

Baah you people and your fancy words ! .. ok u win this time Gadget !!

Re: Detector/EW changes

Line wrote:
Stranger Danger wrote:

This is really a facepalm moment.

The counter to our large fleet is ewar.  Go ahead nerf it.  Render a small fleet 100% worthless with no options to possibly counter a larger fleet.

So beg for them to nerf your only counter to the big fleet, that's fine, ill enjoy the tears from our large fleet of DPS and ictus that will have no counters.

We benefit from the nerf, smaller, unallied corps wont stand a chance (right now they do but no one wants to be smart about it)

Atm best counter to ewar is to bring more ewar. Rinse, repeat.


So making EWAR nothing more than a nuisance means its a DPS arms race and the bigger fleet wins every time.  Right now, jams and suppression can viably remove a large chunk of DPS from the battle, allowing a smaller fleet with ewar (used correctly ofc) to hold tight the additional DPS and even the numbers.

Just because most of the game doesn't choose to use ewar (like how most mmorpgs are full of dps mages and rouges and tanks/healers are hard as hell to find) or doesn't know how to use them in a fleet....and another group of people who are doing VERY well in pvp do...doesn't mean they need nerfing.

Tweaking is fine, and tbh suppression might be able to withstand an ECM like strength decrease.  Jams are already inconsistent and you need more than one ECM to ensure minimal up time on the enemy.

Also, better start sending zoom tickets about ictus being op in advance, followed by green bots in general after the ictus gets nerfed into an annoyance.  That's whats the game will be without viable ewar.

Stranger Danger / Capital Punishment / Cyberdown
Pillar of the Community
Ruler of Recruit Chat
CIR Ministry of Truth

Re: Detector/EW changes

Gremrod wrote:

There are famous moves in chess. If you don't know how to counter said moves you don't change the rules of chess.

Ignorance is curable, Stupidity is not.
The "Planet of the Apes" is not science fiction, is a daily reality.
All is in "The Matrix".
See Beyond the Obvious.

Re: Detector/EW changes

Race Drones wrote:
Gremrod wrote:

There are famous moves in chess. If you don't know how to counter said moves you don't change the rules of chess.



^^^^

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

Re: Detector/EW changes

The counter to Ewar is to bring more Ewar, who knew?

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

117 (edited by Merkle 2014-05-31 06:34:21)

Re: Detector/EW changes

Hit Chance, Light, Ewar, Assault, Mech, Mech Ewar, Heavy.     

Base Value of 35 Hw (T4 For Referance)Hit Chance, 29% , 35%,    35%,   29%,   28%  ,     41%


Base Value of 56 Hw Skilled on (Light, Mech, Heavy,LvL 10 Skill)  46%, 56%, 56%, 46%, 44.8%, 65.8%

Base Value of 74 Hw  on (Light Ewar, Mech Ewar, Mk2 W/ LvL 10 Skill) 61%, 74%, 74%, 61%, 59.2%, 87%

Base Value of 99 Hw on (Light Ewar, Mech Ewar Mk2 W/ Lvl 10, 1 Tuner) 82.5%, 99%. 99%, 82.5%, 79.2%, 100%

Base Value of 134 Hw on (Light Ewar,Mech Ewar Mk2 W/ Lvl10, 2 Tuner) 100%, 100%, 100%, 100%, 100%, 100%

Yellow - Kinda Ok Somewhat *** up.

Red - Really *** Up.

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13

Re: Detector/EW changes

Merkle wrote:

Hit Chance, Light, Ewar, Assault, Mech, Mech Ewar, Heavy.     

Base Value of 35 Hw (T4 For Referance)Hit Chance, 29% , 35%,    35%,   29%,   28%  ,     41%


Base Value of 56 Hw Skilled on (Light, Mech, Heavy,LvL 10 Skill)  46%, 56%, 56%, 46%, 44.8%, 65.8%

Base Value of 74 Hw  on (Light Ewar, Mech Ewar, Mk2 W/ LvL 10 Skill) 61%, 74%, 74%, 61%, 59.2%, 87%

Base Value of 99 Hw on (Light Ewar, Mech Ewar Mk2 W/ Lvl 10, 1 Tuner) 82.5%, 99%. 99%, 82.5%, 79.2%, 100%

Base Value of 134 Hw on (Light Ewar,Mech Ewar Mk2 W/ Lvl10, 2 Tuner) 100%, 100%, 100%, 100%, 100%, 100%

Yellow - Kinda Ok Somewhat *** up.

Red - Really *** Up.


Please tell me you were able to fraps your research?

I am not saying this due to STC/CIR, I am really intersted in seeing how this was done.

Also was there a control group?

Was this test done on the live server or the test server?

And was it done on the other server to compare and contrast all data discovered?

I think the peer review system of three different partys to validate this research is needed, and will only help the game as a whole.

[16:03:43] <Mara Gossep> syndic.....and get your *** spy out of our corp

Re: Detector/EW changes

Um, it's pretty simple math formula said many times on the forums. Go find it!

Re: Detector/EW changes

Burial wrote:

Um, it's pretty simple math formula said many times on the forums. Go find it!


When a person reports their findings, they need to report the research as well, and everything else that went into it, anything less is grandstanding.

If someone is pushing for or against something, then proff should be provided.

[16:03:43] <Mara Gossep> syndic.....and get your *** spy out of our corp

121 (edited by Syndic 2014-05-31 14:57:37)

Re: Detector/EW changes

The "proof" only confirms what I've been saying for a while, ECM is fine ECM Tuning is not fine.

The values posted are without ECCM.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

122 (edited by Rex Amelius 2014-05-31 16:07:14)

Re: Detector/EW changes

Syndic wrote:

The "proof" only confirms what I've been saying for a while, ECM is fine ECM Tuning is not fine.

The values posted are without ECCM.

This!

Jeez you guys and your theory craft fits. It's a waste of space to even use tuners. You guys complain and complain about range and EW strength spewing numbers on forums but NEVER fits. What light ewar fits 2 tuners? I've never fit one tuner as head slots are needed for so much more. Ewar mechs may need our own ECCM for counter ewar. Unless you are guaranteed RSA buddy we need SA. We need RE if it's gonna be long range mech fight. Now we're OP with 2 tuners? after using all my head slots where the hell do I put the ECM mod, in my cargo hold?

Your theory craft fits are a joke and going for 100% is why you lose.

I'm fine with buffing ECCM because you fools don't use them.
I'm fine with completely removing EW tuners from game as head slot fitting is challenging enough and there is never room for tuners.

If EW mods were chassis fittings you'd have a good complaint. But the % in range and EW strength you complain so much about are fits that we never use because they are impractical and ineffective. And that is from experience, not spreadsheet warrior online

Post full fits and counter fits with your %

Sparking to other games

123 (edited by Rex Amelius 2014-05-31 18:21:48)

Re: Detector/EW changes

Burial argues that 1 ECCM is not enough to mitigate ewar
Ozy argues that 1 damage tuning is not enough to buff damage.

You guys are willing to stack damage tuners but not willing to stack ECCM

Seems obvious to me you have a fitting preference. Rather than adjust to enemy tactics you want game to adjust to you.

Here is a Pro Tip. It's far easier to adjust your fittings than to convince Devs about balance. We'll be back here in forums when ewar is useless discussing a nerf on the next fit that counters your preference.

And if you use Syndic generous suggestion we'd have to bring different types bots next time. Then perhaps you bring something different. And so on. My God, people are not NPCs,  you have to constantly adapt.

The tools are available. You just refuse to use them.

Sparking to other games

124 (edited by Syndic 2014-05-31 21:53:25)

Re: Detector/EW changes

Dear Devs if you have any uncertainty on the "problem" of ECM, consult this post in the testing forum

http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/post/101874/#p101874

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: Detector/EW changes

Interestingly enought, a few posts up, first we claim that Ewar Tuners are uesless and should never be used.

Then a few post down, the opposite is put forth.

Then claims of "we never use them so It doesn't matter" is put forth, sadly, this type of redirection is nothing more then a false truth. 

As per my numbers those were base figures.  I was unaware that I needed to say anything other then what was in the "(   )".  That quite clear and shows how I pulled my base numbers.  All of these were server numbers, with zero calculation done, other then hit chance, which is quite simple.

The Gifter
Top  Killer 2013  - 01: 334 -- 17 -- 317  : Merkle
Top  Killer 2012  - 01: 027 -- 472 -- 445 : Merkle

Scarab Kill Count - 13