Topic: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Here you can post your feedback from the test server and ideas about ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM
The topic will be moderated heavily, we expect mature conversation here, and constructive feedback.

On the test server
-extension that provides 2% sensor str bonus / lvl (both to bot's base value and to the eccm)

Things we are considering, ideas welcome:
-the new extension affect only the eccm
-changes to robot bonuses, or module fitting values.
-lowering tunings bonuses
-increasing tuning drawback
-increasing ECCM modules efficiency significantly
-new mechanic (entropy) (forumpost)
-change tunings to add flat ecm strength bonus values

"Rock is OP. Paper is okay." - Scissors

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Will you be reimbursing EP?

With the extension there is no point to field EW Mechs anymore, a single ECCM turns them into a liability.

People have accounts completely dedicated to EW, you should reimburse those extensions since they will be useless and not fielded anymore.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Syndic: how about figuring out first what will be changed, and THEN thinking about what needs to be reimbursed or not? smile

4 (edited by Syndic 2014-05-30 13:53:29)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

20% increase on top of Assault/Mech Sensor Strength + 1 ECCM = ~35% jam, that's a liability I would never bring to my fleet Zoom.

+ theres bound to be 1 of those things from the list implemented, guaranteed liability & useless account.

EDIT:

Just realized I overlooked the small print, so:

20% increase to BASE VALUE of SS
20% increase to ECCM (90 SS)

Meaning;

MECH & ASSAULT -> 120 SS + 90 SS = 210 SS

Max Vaga EW Strength = 73,5

All of that equals to ~30-35% RNG Variable per ECM

Ultimate result being it's better to bring a RR Bot or a Heavy Mech that can output armor/repair/energy/damage 100%, since EW Mech is unreliable and pointless for fleets.

TL;DR

You should reimburse if you put this in.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Syndic wrote:

Will you be reimbursing EP?

With the extension there is no point to field EW Mechs anymore, a single ECCM turns them into a liability.

People have accounts completely dedicated to EW, you should reimburse those extensions since they will be useless and not fielded anymore.


I have 1M skillpoints dedicated to Ewar. The above changes make that guy completely useless. I promise I wont be buying perp credits to respec him and I imagine that feeling is common.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

OK STC got what they wanted the nerf is coming

We will re spec with DPS we will see what the next nerf will be

You are making this game into MWO or WOT

Ya lets wait for test server but for prior changes we all know how this gonna end.

ECM tunings are op no question about it but giving extension for ECCM ?  like mention before im force now to learn an extension to be effective.

If  the devs decide to  nerf ewar to oblivion will this mean a free reimbursement ?

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Can you at least explain why you think ewar is overpowered?

Proverbs 23:20-21 warns us, “Do not join those who drink too much wine or gorge themselves on meat, for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags."

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

I stand by what I've been saying for the last 10+ topics

ECM, ECCM and EWar is balanced fine, the only potential issue is tuning-stacking which is a global game issue.

Change the debuff for ECM tuning from 10% accumulator to 50% cycletime increase and FIXED.

You're trying to fix what isn't broken. There's no mechanic known to man that can nerf 20 people working together to kill 5 people.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
CIR Complaint Form

The Imperial Grand Wizard of Justice

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Tbh, I don't think there is any combination of ewar strngth/sensor strength values that would suddenly make ECM a fun mechanic.  And despite all the accusations and drama I don't think anyone here actually wants it to be nerfed into the ground.

Also, with the current mechanics, inefficient ECM is still gonna be disproportionately more useful to the side that can field more bots.  You will still get situations where a bunch of small bots will be able to take down a heavy without any risk of being shot.

Would it be possible to try a bare bones version of an area of effect ECM mechanic (kind of like interference but with a chance to break lock) and let people just play with it on the test server for a bit? 
Maybe players will like it, maybe it will be horrible, but if it's not too difficult to code and doesn't put too much stress on the server, just maybe, it's worth giving it a try?

+1
-Confucius

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

We use Ewar effectively and opponents do not.

That doesnt make it imbalanced

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

2% to ECCM per level yes

and also to bot?  no

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

One step at a time Devs. You can't test balancing when you change multiple things at once.

Sparking to other games

13 (edited by Hunter 2014-05-30 08:22:32)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

I agree with Syndic. Maybe EWar modules been overpowered. But where exactly? I think there are need to decrease its range and timers, but definetly not ew-strengh.

BTW: At same time as far as i understand EnWars remains it's power? So this is noting more than shifting the balance.

And yes, i going to speculate again.

The theory of mutual interests
Why the crybabies wins?
Где Ханя - там победа (с)
DEV Zoom: No need to speculate...

14 (edited by Inda 2014-05-30 07:04:40)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Jita wrote:

Can you at least explain why you think ewar is overpowered?

Pls. explain it, I dont think the EW is unbalanced right now, and when you have 20 v 20 it isnt easy to implement the EW on the battlefield so you need skilled pilots to take advantage from EW.

If something not broken dont try to fix it !

Energy to Earth!

18.01.2014. [12:57:58] <BeastmodeGuNs> after that i remembered all those warning about 1v1 you lol, and i found out why xD

15 (edited by Gremrod 2014-05-30 07:25:45)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

I am also one that would like the DEVs to explain why this ECM ewar change is needed. Tell us why it is currently broken.

Dev Alf in your own explanation can you tell us what is broken with ECM and ewar in general?

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Another mandatory extension is the least favorable solution to whatever problems you're trying to solve. Revert nao.

Just tweak base sensor strengths and the amount of ECCM bonus (SLIGHTLY) to make ewar a bit weaker. Overall, EW system is fine as it is.

Also, an idea for big changes: make ecm/supp strength proportional to the target distance.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

the proposed changes do not match.

the Entropy thingy for example should be a seperate pool for every attacker - or at least it should be implemented with that beeing possible if necessary.

then, when a target gradually builds up a resistance agains consecutive ECM strikes, then the initial ECM change to hit needs to be boosted, not nerfed (extension, ECCM)  - and the extension should not increase the resist, but increase the duration of the buff.

That would add more player skill to the attacking force to call targets for their Ewar pilots...

make target painter slightly counter the buff for additional tactical use of it - hear: slightly, almost negliable to not make it mandatory.

and about the tuning drawback... make it increase interference of that robot.

*Disclaimer: This post can contain strong sarcasm or cynical remarks. keep that in mind!
Whining - It's amazing how fast your trivial concerns will disappear

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

I really am not in favor of doing much of anything outside of the tuner. There is a fine a balance that exists now and I am curious to what the whole issue is that needs to be solved.

The current extension is not only mandatory for PvP but also allows mechs to have higher EW strength than a suppresser. This alone breaks the  full ew that would stop you from targeting because suppression would fail and allow you to lock and  fire. A current ECCM does the same thing for every bot now.

I would like to know what we are trying to solve to help come up with ideas if we can get some definition.

Undefeated 2013
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Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

DEV ALF please add one leg slot for vagabond. It will do EW stuff better with it.
Look: now its a paperbot, you will have some ballancing issues when real mass pvp will happen.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

The reason why we thinking about changing some parameters of the ECM is we always see forum topics, ingame chats, reports about how strong it is, how OP it is.
Also we are not really like the possibility of making a player totally blind, and unable to shoot back. Ew is somekind of CC (CrowdControl), it should buy time, lower the threat, provide better control of damage you recieve but should not be able to negate it completely, from any source( per player - and we also want to keep the differences between bots). We also want it too keep worthy of using it.

The buff-debuff with the ecm strength on successful ew hit  is aimed to achieve this, by lowering the chances of each following ew in given timeperiod. However with little awareness you can play around it, and still be able to ecm and suppress reliably but less often on the same target, and you should have to switch between targets to bring your EW to its maximum potential. It is some form of diminishing returns and it can be seen in many games (even for damage)

The idea of the extension is simple, with a given amount of EP spent you can slightly lower the chances of being hit by EW. We working on the modification of the extension so it should provide this bonuses to the ECCM only.
We recieved feedback manytimes that we shouldn't nerf stuff, instead make other stuff better. We intend to make ECCM better.

But eventually the problem is the reliability of the EW is too high, which is achieved by the tunings. We also working on this that the tuners should work differently. We like the idea of more drawback, flat increase, maybe flat percentage increase, or even cycletime increase, these are all a good option, but it doesn't mean that any of it will be made for sure.
We also thinking about the racial radartypes, that would bring another layer of complexity which I like, but we fear that some of the EW modules would become highly situational.
Also keep in mind that we don't talk about only fleet compositions, we have to take the funfactor of individual players into account.
(and in the future all of the tunings and similar modules will be revised)

"Rock is OP. Paper is okay." - Scissors

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

I do not thing it is unbalanced either.


Current ECCM is making my job VERY difficult.



Inda wrote:
Jita wrote:

Can you at least explain why you think ewar is overpowered?

Pls. explain it, I dont think the EW is unbalanced right now, and when you have 20 v 20 it isnt easy to implement the EW on the battlefield so you need skilled pilots to take advantage from EW.

If something not broken dont try to fix it !

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

22 (edited by Rage Blackout 2014-05-30 15:22:28)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

"The buff-debuff with the ecm strength on successful ew hit  is aimed to achieve this, by lowering the chances of each following ew in given timeperiod. "


I hate to say this, but our battle communication skills and planning are going to make this even worse for the people who are on the dying end of every battle.

We can easily adapt and it will be bad for the opposition, very bad.

bad




DEV Alf wrote:

The reason why we thinking about changing some parameters of the ECM is we always see forum topics, ingame chats, reports about how strong it is, how OP it is.
Also we are not really like the possibility of making a player totally blind, and unable to shoot back. Ew is somekind of CC (CrowdControl), it should buy time, lower the threat, provide better control of damage you recieve but should not be able to negate it completely, from any source( per player - and we also want to keep the differences between bots). We also want it too keep worthy of using it.

The buff-debuff with the ecm strength on successful ew hit  is aimed to achieve this, by lowering the chances of each following ew in given timeperiod. However with little awareness you can play around it, and still be able to ecm and suppress reliably but less often on the same target, and you should have to switch between targets to bring your EW to its maximum potential. It is some form of diminishing returns and it can be seen in many games (even for damage)

The idea of the extension is simple, with a given amount of EP spent you can slightly lower the chances of being hit by EW. We working on the modification of the extension so it should provide this bonuses to the ECCM only.
We recieved feedback manytimes that we shouldn't nerf stuff, instead make other stuff better. We intend to make ECCM better.

But eventually the problem is the reliability of the EW is too high, which is achieved by the tunings. We also working on this that the tuners should work differently. We like the idea of more drawback, flat increase, maybe flat percentage increase, or even cycletime increase, these are all a good option, but it doesn't mean that any of it will be made for sure.
We also thinking about the racial radartypes, that would bring another layer of complexity which I like, but we fear that some of the EW modules would become highly situational.
Also keep in mind that we don't talk about only fleet compositions, we have to take the funfactor of individual players into account.
(and in the future all of the tunings and similar modules will be revised)

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

23 (edited by Rage Blackout 2014-05-30 15:27:28)

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

DEV Alf wrote:

We working on the modification of the extension so it should provide this bonuses to the ECCM only.

(and in the future all of the tunings and similar modules will be revised)

Acceptable





Dev Alf,

I have a real challenge for you.


Participate in a fight with both sides, one at a time.  Be in coms and listen and observe.

I can say with 100% certaintly there will be a night and day difference.



The point being that certain teams are employing about 20 skills effectively and other teams are not:

Teamwork
Communication
Practice
Planning
Training
Fit doctrines
Proper target calling
Proper battelfield direction
Proper EWAR coordination and target calling
etc. etc.

the list goes on and on.




You can't just "lock targets and shoot them" and expect to win....

DEV Zoom - "If you mean the NPC aggro, that's been like that for months already."

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

DEV Alf wrote:

The reason why we thinking about changing some parameters of the ECM is we always see forum topics, ingame chats, reports about how strong it is, how OP it is.
Also we are not really like the possibility of making a player totally blind, and unable to shoot back. Ew is somekind of CC (CrowdControl), it should buy time, lower the threat, provide better control of damage you recieve but should not be able to negate it completely, from any source( per player - and we also want to keep the differences between bots). We also want it too keep worthy of using it.

The buff-debuff with the ecm strength on successful ew hit  is aimed to achieve this, by lowering the chances of each following ew in given timeperiod. However with little awareness you can play around it, and still be able to ecm and suppress reliably but less often on the same target, and you should have to switch between targets to bring your EW to its maximum potential. It is some form of diminishing returns and it can be seen in many games (even for damage)

The idea of the extension is simple, with a given amount of EP spent you can slightly lower the chances of being hit by EW. We working on the modification of the extension so it should provide this bonuses to the ECCM only.
We recieved feedback manytimes that we shouldn't nerf stuff, instead make other stuff better. We intend to make ECCM better.

But eventually the problem is the reliability of the EW is too high, which is achieved by the tunings. We also working on this that the tuners should work differently. We like the idea of more drawback, flat increase, maybe flat percentage increase, or even cycletime increase, these are all a good option, but it doesn't mean that any of it will be made for sure.
We also thinking about the racial radartypes, that would bring another layer of complexity which I like, but we fear that some of the EW modules would become highly situational.
Also keep in mind that we don't talk about only fleet compositions, we have to take the funfactor of individual players into account.
(and in the future all of the tunings and similar modules will be revised)


I think we've shown with our math in this thread just how wrong all those 'forums posts and ingame chats' are. People dont like to die, and will whine about whatever kills them.

You guys are looking at this too short term and small picture. In a small 30 vs 30 fight ewar can play a pretty big role, sure. Those are the biggest fight this game can currently field.

However if your steam initiative is successful, and it sounds like its going to be since you are able to splurge for double ramen, the dynamics are going to change considerably. Having blanket coverage ewar in a 50 vs 50 or 100 vs 100 fight just isnt possible. The logistics involved with coordinating that is too good for even the best corps/players to achieve. In addition, as DPS reaches critical mass, ewars will begin getting easily one shot and eliminated instantly.

As the game grows ewar will less and less powerful naturally, without any dev intervention. Fix the tunings to a static amount if you must, but let the delicate balance you've struck otherwise stand on its own two legs for a bit. You arent designing the game for the tiny subset of folks you have been for the last year, you're designing it for the future.

Re: ECM / EW tuners / Supressors / ECCM

Thanks for your explanation Alf. smile

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23