76

Re: Detector/EW changes

Syndic wrote:

What you are ignoring is lock time.

What is heavy lock time with 2 sensor amplifiers?

How many ECM's do you need to break 2 ECCM's?

Lockbooster nexus?

Farlock nexus?

You can say that you sacrifice DPS - that is the point. You can't have the cake and the pie at the same time, otherwise everyone can just roll in heavies and RR's and we can compete in who has more RR.

You'd need 3 ecms on target to make that heavy mostly useless, despite the ridiculous lock-time. Also, that heavy is pretty pathetic in terms of damage, especially if it needs an RE too.

To make something clear here ... i think trade-offs are GOOD. In fact, they're required for the game to function. That doesn't mean that the value proposition of all trade-offs is right at the moment though, and i'd say the ecm vs eccm mechanic is one such instance, especially if we actually look at mechs instead of heavies. What i'd primarily like to see are ideas that change the mechanic slightly in favour of ECCMs and then implementations of those ideas on the test server. We need to try stuff out and see what works. I'm not too fond of the currently proposed extension because it'd both be mandatory and not really effective.

Re: Detector/EW changes

3 ECMs?

Versus 2 Sensor amplifiers and 2 ECCMs?

OK now you're outright making things up as you go.

Dev Alf, please test if you can jam-lock a Heavy with 2 SA/2 ECCM's with 3 ECMs.

That's the "quality" of feedback you are getting.

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78 (edited by Ozy 2014-05-29 17:36:43)

Re: Detector/EW changes

Syndic wrote:

3 ECMs?

Versus 2 Sensor amplifiers and 2 ECCMs?

OK now you're outright making things up as you go.

Dev Alf, please test if you can jam-lock a Heavy with 2 SA/2 ECCM's with 3 ECMs.

That's the "quality" of feedback you are getting.

Test it out. As always, i used a single ECM tuner in the setup (4 ECMs, 1 tuner, 1 RE). Also, the heavy can shoot occasionally, but not being able to shoot like 80% of the time isn't really good enough when you're spending 4 slots on hardening the bot against ewar.

Re: Detector/EW changes

Oh the heavy can shoot occasionally! Now we're getting somewhere. Now let's introduce a Fastlock NEXUS to the equation. Is the Heavy jammed out, which means completely unable to do anything whatsoever?

Now, DEV ALF, remember to test with ECM tuning and without ECM tuning.

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80 (edited by Annihilator 2014-05-29 18:28:16)

Re: Detector/EW changes

ok, if the heavy has that NEXUS support, the EWAR has to have the same, right?
aka E-War nexus for more range, and OFC the fastlock one too.

but dont put a masker on the ewar and its buffbot... that would be cheating. Noone with the right mind would try that, just alphastriking ECMs and supressor, then hide back in stealth.

and with that, you start to add more robots to each side again.

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Re: Detector/EW changes

You can put Fastlock on both sides and it won't make a difference. You can add EWAR to one, Assault & Critical to the other, blah blah. It makes no difference.

A single Vagabond cannot permanently jam out a Heavy Mech with 2 sensor amps, 2 ECCMs.

You can argue that ECM Tunings need to be looked at as an individual module, you cannot argue that EWar as a whole needs nerfing because the thing it's supposed to counter is having trouble fighting against it.

--->There are 5 choices to counter EWar <---

1. Use Mechs
2. Use longer range EW
3. Use Ictus
4. Use Assaults
5. Use anything BUT a fleet entirely composed of Heavy Mechs and 2 alt-accounts on Zenith mk2's.

There's a counter for everything. And it's not support tickets.

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Re: Detector/EW changes

Some of the changes are now available on the Test server, please check it out.-

-Extension is added so far in its original idea, but this can be removed any time.
-Indy bots gained masking, hauler indy bots gained detection instead of masking.
-Changes in Colony Turret bandwidth values, aswell in Colony main terminal Bandwidth limit values.
(sadly the detector changes didn't make it. the numbers are there on the server, but the penalty doesn't apply yet)

About the ewar:
In general we feel the the initial chances are in good place, but the combined effects of ECMs Supressors and Tuners together are strong. And we are not talking about from only one mechs, the effects may originate from different mechs.
So far the reliability of initial ECMing is feel right, with tuners maybe too reliable.
What we have in mind, that ECMs addig a buff to the target, and the supression debuff also should incorporates this buff.
This buff would increase the sensor strength of the target, making it more resistant for the next ew. this may stack up as many times as it can. The buff only applies if the ew is successful. This will keep the initial reliability in place, but lower the chances of rapid succession ew application on targets. (ofc. this buff would also fade out in short time.)
This is just another (crazy? smile ) idea.

For now I would like to invite you to the test server and test out the current iteration of the extension.
I think it isn't that bad.
(I tested it in the past ofc, but it may be the cause of the hatred towards me. I want your FEEDBACK, what you actually EXPERIENCE! - If I test it out by myself and I find it good for me, it will lead to nowhere)

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Re: Detector/EW changes

Why would you add detection to transport indys?  So they know they are screwed at a much longer distance?? fuuu

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Re: Detector/EW changes

DEV Alf wrote:

Some of the changes are now available on the Test server, please check it out.-

-Extension is added so far in its original idea, but this can be removed any time.
-Indy bots gained masking, hauler indy bots gained detection instead of masking.
-Changes in Colony Turret bandwidth values, aswell in Colony main terminal Bandwidth limit values.
(sadly the detector changes didn't make it. the numbers are there on the server, but the penalty doesn't apply yet)

About the ewar:
In general we feel the the initial chances are in good place, but the combined effects of ECMs Supressors and Tuners together are strong. And we are not talking about from only one mechs, the effects may originate from different mechs.
So far the reliability of initial ECMing is feel right, with tuners maybe too reliable.
What we have in mind, that ECMs addig a buff to the target, and the supression debuff also should incorporates this buff.
This buff would increase the sensor strength of the target, making it more resistant for the next ew. this may stack up as many times as it can. The buff only applies if the ew is successful. This will keep the initial reliability in place, but lower the chances of rapid succession ew application on targets. (ofc. this buff would also fade out in short time.)
This is just another (crazy? smile ) idea.

For now I would like to invite you to the test server and test out the current iteration of the extension.
I think it isn't that bad.
(I tested it in the past ofc, but it may be the cause of the hatred towards me. I want your FEEDBACK, what you actually EXPERIENCE! - If I test it out by myself and I find it good for me, it will lead to nowhere)

Honestly Dev Alf what always bothered me about the ECM Tuning was that the drawback is negligible (10% accu usage) which is completely nullified by a recharger or two, and the efficient ECM technology.

Considering the 35% bonus these tunings provide, I would recommend exploring the potential of changing their drawback to increasing the cycletime on EW modules. That way yes, you could theoretically have a raised reliability to jam, but if your cycletime on ECM was 15 seconds (for example) instead of 10 it would significantly balance them (50% increase in cycletime might be a little bit too much but who knows). smile

The combined effects of ECM's and Suppressors are certainly strong, but even in Mk2 versions (6 headslots between Zenith Mk2 and Vagabond Mk2) that means they can at best put 2 EW modules on 1 target, thus 2 people affect 3 people. The unmentioned side-effect of this, is that all their EW modules are occupied thus anyone else can apply it to them and break their hold.

This drags us into fleet vs fleet battles, where composition, range, DPS target priority, EW target priority, terrain use, manuevering, etc plays a significant role to create a very complex and balanced system where everything is viable, and everything can and has been countered.

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85 (edited by Burial 2014-05-29 19:41:16)

Re: Detector/EW changes

Pretty simple fixes in my opinion:
- ECCM 125 point EW resistance per module.
- EW nexus downgraded to 15% at level 10.
- ECM and Suppressor tuners add set amount per tuner.

86 (edited by Ozy 2014-05-29 20:11:48)

Re: Detector/EW changes

DEV Alf wrote:

This buff would increase the sensor strength of the target, making it more resistant for the next ew. this may stack up as many times as it can. The buff only applies if the ew is successful. This will keep the initial reliability in place, but lower the chances of rapid succession ew application on targets. (ofc. this buff would also fade out in short time.)
This is just another (crazy? smile ) idea.

Interesting! I don't think the repeated ew application is that much of an issue if it's in a very short frame of time. I do think that the RNG that EW application has is a bit annoying though.

Have a look at the math/method here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ … 1895463423

What happens is that before the first ECM is applied, a random number between 20 and 80 is created for the target ("entropy"). Then, the hit chance for the ECM is added (so, let's say 40  + 70% hit chance = 110). If the value is 100 or higher, the ECM hits and a number is subtracted from the entropy counter. Usually, this would be 100 (so, 40 + 70 = 110 - 100 = 10), but if you want to make it harder for subsequent ECMs to hit, this number could be adjusted to e.g. 150 (effectively reducing accuracy on chained hits). Anyway, for the next ECM, the accuracy is just added to the entropy counter (10 + 70 = 80 = no hit).

Adjusting the value that gets subtracted substantially could be a bit severe though, but i think adding something like an entropy counter would be really nice in general even if it's not used to adjust the likelihood of repeated hits as it takes a bit of the frustration out of the application of ECMs (i.e., if you have a 50% chance to hit, you'll never be able to hit or miss 3 times in a row).

P.S. If ecms aren't being applied to the target anymore, the counter would be reset.

Re: Detector/EW changes

Burial wrote:
Tund Bungler wrote:
Burial wrote:

Not fast enough.

15kph isnt enough to catch up? There is no pleasing you people!

That's little over 4 meters per second. As I said it's not fast enough.

What you meant to say is you aren't good enough to make it work. Strad and I have probably more experience running fast tackle than the rest of the server combined and we are both telling you its easily done.

Re: Detector/EW changes

Frankly I am little perplexed as to why ECM tuners were introduced into the game at all. If ewar was such an issues for all these years, why BUFF it with tuners?

However, these tuners do take up the same valuable head slots that ECMs do, unlike all other modules with tuners where the tuner is in a different slot (e.g. guns in chassis with tuners in head).

The first place to balance is the tuner. Just take it one step at a time.

Sparking to other games

89 (edited by Stranger Danger 2014-05-29 20:50:14)

Re: Detector/EW changes

so I can ECM jam our fleet prior to battle and then roll in immune?

Not sure why this is even being done, since all have access to the same bots we do, and im sure 99% of the complaints about ewar are based on how effective we have used it in fleets.

If you want to make it so that everyone rolls around in DPS bots just do it already.  Just make sure to refund my EP spent into Numiqol for access to ECM bots.


Also since EWAR specific bots now will be useless after being successful a few times...perhaps a new application for those ewar bots is needed.  Seems silly to have ewar specific bots who wont be able to ewar well...might as well just pop one ewar mod on every DPS bot and ignore special ops bots in combat.

Im assuming no EP refunds will be granted if ewar has the ability to nerf itself in battle by applying ewar on others.


Just seems such a knee jerk reaction to properly using all the tools given to us in game vs rolling out in all DPS bots like most others do.

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90

Re: Detector/EW changes

Stranger Danger wrote:

so I can ECM jam our fleet prior to battle and then roll in immune?

That'd be stupid. This stuff should be on a short cooldown. 10 - 20 seconds at most.

91 (edited by Stranger Danger 2014-05-29 21:10:46)

Re: Detector/EW changes

Ozy wrote:
Stranger Danger wrote:

so I can ECM jam our fleet prior to battle and then roll in immune?

That'd be stupid. This stuff should be on a short cooldown. 10 - 20 seconds at most.

Almost as dumb as nerfing ewar because a large portion of the game chooses not to use it effectively and doesn't like that another portion of the game does.

But whatever, with this change smaller fleets wont stand a chance vs larger fleets.  DPS slug fest incoming.

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92

Re: Detector/EW changes

Stranger Danger wrote:

Almost as dumb as nerfing ewar because a large portion of the game chooses not to use it effectively and doesn't like that another portion of the game does.

But whatever, with this change smaller fleets wont stand a chance vs larger fleets.  DPS slug fest incoming.

I think so far everything in this thread's tentative. Also, i fail to see how this is about one corp--we're all using ewar heavily.

Re: Detector/EW changes

DEV Alf these proposed changes would significantly impact and impede the fun of anyone who dedicated their entire EP to making their account specialized into EW. 

You should reset everyone's EW extension and reimburse EP, otherwise people will be stuck on useless accounts.

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Re: Detector/EW changes

DEV Alf wrote:

Some of the changes are now available on the Test server, please check it out.-

-Extension is added so far in its original idea, but this can be removed any time.
-Indy bots gained masking, hauler indy bots gained detection instead of masking.
-Changes in Colony Turret bandwidth values, aswell in Colony main terminal Bandwidth limit values.
(sadly the detector changes didn't make it. the numbers are there on the server, but the penalty doesn't apply yet)

About the ewar:
In general we feel the the initial chances are in good place, but the combined effects of ECMs Supressors and Tuners together are strong. And we are not talking about from only one mechs, the effects may originate from different mechs.
So far the reliability of initial ECMing is feel right, with tuners maybe too reliable.
What we have in mind, that ECMs addig a buff to the target, and the supression debuff also should incorporates this buff.
This buff would increase the sensor strength of the target, making it more resistant for the next ew. this may stack up as many times as it can. The buff only applies if the ew is successful. This will keep the initial reliability in place, but lower the chances of rapid succession ew application on targets. (ofc. this buff would also fade out in short time.)
This is just another (crazy? smile ) idea.

For now I would like to invite you to the test server and test out the current iteration of the extension.
I think it isn't that bad.
(I tested it in the past ofc, but it may be the cause of the hatred towards me. I want your FEEDBACK, what you actually EXPERIENCE! - If I test it out by myself and I find it good for me, it will lead to nowhere)


Alf, honestly you are so far of the mark with these changes i dont even know where to begin. You've been *** this game up with your balance for god knows how long and instead of getting right back to it after your 2 years not playing the game how about you listen to what people are saying and make changes based upon that with some new ideas rather than some left field *** that nobody suggested, nobody has thought about and nobody can fathom the balance of.

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95 (edited by Rex Amelius 2014-05-29 22:47:55)

Re: Detector/EW changes

About the DPS:

What we have in mind, that Armor Damage addig a resistance buff to the target.
This buff would increase the Armor Resistance of the target, making it more resistant for the next cycle. this may stack up as many times as it can. The buff only applies if the Hit is successful. This will keep the initial Damage in place, but lower the Damage of rapid focus fire on targets. (ofc. this buff would also fade out in short time.)
This is just another (crazy? smile ) idea.

Using all my guns on one target is bad? Fleets coordinating targets and setting priorities on more dangerous enemy bots bad? So debuf anyone getting hit? Yes, sounds crazy.

Sparking to other games

96 (edited by Tux 2014-05-29 22:48:22)

Re: Detector/EW changes

On detectors why not just increase the CPU and Reactor needed to equip the detector module so much so that the only thing a Castle can use with it is a LWF?

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97 (edited by Rex Amelius 2014-05-29 22:57:35)

Re: Detector/EW changes

Tux wrote:

On detectors why not just increase the CPU and Reactor needed to equip the detector module so much so that the only thing a Castle can use with it is a LWF?

Or in line with this, adjust the module and the CREATE a new specialized Detector Bot. This way as Population and Islands grow, and Detection needs change, you can continue to balance the detection without making sweeping changes.

You can apply this thinking to ewar as well. Rather than across the board nerfs/buffs, focus your attention on modifying Specific Bot bonuses.

Examples: If Heavies have too low of Sensor Strength then buff the heavy, not every bot in game (though I think their SS is fine the way it is). If Vaga creates too strong ECM then nerf the Vaga (again its fine).

Have you guys considered that if you buff all sensor strength you also buff Ewar Bots so they are harder to counter jam?

POINT IS: You guys need to use the scalpel, not the sledgehammer.

And hey, split this topic, man.

Sparking to other games

98 (edited by Tux 2014-05-29 23:11:34)

Re: Detector/EW changes

Rage Blackout wrote:

++  Works well in EVE, should be good here.

Merkle wrote:

Also adding in Racial ECMs would help out greatly on the balancing front.  You have to choose your Jams that you want, its not just a blanket ECM's

Perfect solution .. not to heavy handed and will make current mechanics more balanced between attacker / defender. would also add racial suppression to this and a slight buff to ECCM as mentioned 2% per skill level  or 5% per module Tier.

EW should complement damage dealers not provide an invisible shield for them.

Tux ~ Kill the messenger, he was part of it all along.
Euripides ~ Ten soldiers wisely led will beat a hundred without a head.
Bertrand Russell ~ War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Re: Detector/EW changes

I gathering this is TOO much like EVE, and wondering if Copywrite is coming into play.

Really, this would balance everything out nicely and eliminate the problem all together.

Start with ECM and then see if Suppressors need this, I dont think they do personally.

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100 (edited by Merkle 2014-05-30 01:25:44)

Re: Detector/EW changes

Going a step farther.

All Racial Base would be what is Base now.

Add in multi Racail with 50% of base. 

Change all bots to have Racial Sensor Strength.


Adding in your buffing Stacking Thingy, Ehhh, Not so sure about this...seems gimmicky.

The Gifter
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