76 (edited by Ozy 2014-04-26 19:35:55)

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

that's very non-committal answer tongue

personally, im thinking that the ewar biased fleet has the advantage in most cases due to three points:

1. ewar mechs can take a single opposing bot of any strength out of the fight in most scenarios. When vagas and zeniths are combined and communication works (hardest part about this, lol), this number can go up.

2. Ewar has both a speed, range and masking advantage over similar bots, and especially masked ewar not being retaliated against by a majority of the opposing fleet is pretty damn strong.

3. Augmenting the ewars with ictuses means that hostile bots can be rendered permanently useless/shields can be overcome.

In general, the move away from follows made ewars stronger, i think, as follows used to mitigate some of these issues. Just out of curiosity, how would you say the general equation changes when we're moving from heavies to either mechs + ewar mechs or mechs + light ewar?

--
Just for the record, i haven't really formed an opinion regarding the balance of ewar yet.

77 (edited by Lemon 2014-04-26 23:54:40)

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

@Ozy

You reference the power of e-war and how its power only grows as you have synergy between fits and play.

This is just as powerful for a DPS bot, if you are have a enemy Demobed and then Fully neuted. Most DPS bots mech mk 2 and larger will 1-2 shot that unshielded bot.

As you build a more and more focused group around e-war, the enemy can go with the same for tank, dps, or range builds ext. Interference, Masking and Numbers as well as player skill all can easily flip this balance in any direction.

Everyone here keeps referencing pvp experience and time played but in my 4 years playing and all of the  100+ bot engagements I have been in. 1/4 of the fleet always does 3/4 of the damage, it is easier for a less skilled player to be effective at e-war than it is to be a effective DPS.

Edit: To expand on skill, numbers and effectiveness, Once a fleet is large enough to have to avoid its own interference then DPS outweighs e-war

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Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

I'm not gonna get into the theorycrafting, let me show you how it looks in reality

http://killboard.sequer.nl/?a=kill-rela … l_id=42477
http://killboard.sequer.nl/?a=kill-rela … l_id=42501

Consult these 2 fights that happened (some overlap in KM's due to sh*tty killboards)

2:1 Combat Odds
2:1 EWAR Odds

If EWAR is overpowered, why didn't we lose?
If Heavies are overpowered, why did you lose at TMB?

Or maybe it's time to accept that you don't know enough about this game to post about whats OP or what isn't.

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Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

http://killboard.sequer.nl/?a=kill-rela … l_id=41552

See I can post killmails too.

According to mine, mechs are overpowered compared to heavies. There are a million factors in fleet pvp to take into account. You guys are discussing the issue on a macro scale and it needs to be done on a micro scale. You can find a killmail to support any argument.

Continue discussion...

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Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Aight, so EWAR and Heavies are underpowered, mechs are overpowered. Gotcha.

[18:20:30] <GLiMPSE> Chairman Of My Heart o/
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Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Syndic wrote:

Aight, so EWAR and Heavies are underpowered, mechs are overpowered. Gotcha.

big_smile

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Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Ozy wrote:

In general, the move away from follows made ewars stronger, i think, as follows used to mitigate some of these issues. Just out of curiosity, how would you say the general equation changes when we're moving from heavies to either mechs + ewar mechs or mechs + light ewar?

"Damn those followbot nerfs! Why should they actually make playing logi bots actually a worthwhile activity when nobody in my corp wants to do it! Nerf! Power to the ISBoxers!"

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

I want aoe ECMs w/ no LOS to fight the blob.

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Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Annihilator wrote:

what exactly have the above examples to do with LoS restrictions?

i mean, those 6 kains will hardly be able to hit a single one of those ewar bots, because they can apply their ECM and eventually demobs from behind obstacles, let alone the  low chance that those EM weapons succesfully hit.

Another person with more typing skills then pvp kills....

Cams with a med accumulator fit still get 2 shot by a gauss fit kain if by chance one of those kains gets a lock and demobs a cam and cycles before the cam realizes its a dead cam.

The battle field is fluid on paper what looks like a sure win is by no means what happens. People make mistakes, others capitalize on said mistakes. Good pvp'rs know when to engage and when to retreat. Great Pvp'ers can swing the win margin to their side easily because they learned from their own or others mistakes. I've done small and solo pvp along time. I've taken my fair share of losses do to dumb engagement, I've also taken more than my fair share of victories against odds.

I play every color and every bot in the game. I've been told by FC to swap to something our fleet lacks because he trusts me to do what I come in as effectively or better than my enemy.

To the opening post I say Learn to play this op tactic if you really believe its op. Sorry you spec'd pure dps, no one told you to spend all your ep on gun skills. I suffered on my main for 3 years of no killmail glory.

tldr: cant beat them? Join them L2p ewar

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Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Lobo wrote:

...Good pvp'rs know when to engage and when to retreat. ....

yet half of the daily forum post are about complaints that "retreat" is the primary form of pvp.

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Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Everything falls into the lap of the FC.

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Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

1) Fit two amps and two eccm's on heavies
2) Laugh at even max skilled ewar mechs
3) .........................
4) Profit!

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Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

99 / 235 = ECM lands 42%
112 / 235 = Suppressor lands 47%

That's pretty bad for having to use that many head slots.

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Burial wrote:

99 / 235 = ECM lands 42%
112 / 235 = Suppressor lands 47%

That's pretty bad for having to use that many head slots.

Test it out. Under two single tuning ecm and two single tuning suppressor your able to lock and fire ~ 50% of the time. Given that this would require one zenith mk 2 and one vaga mk 2 with perfect skills to have that effect on two heavies and they would have no damage to return back those are some dead ewar mechs. Factor in nexus and your improving those numbers even more.

In a 10 vs 10 lets say your facing 5 damage and 5 ewar mechs and you've rocked up in 10 damage - your still doing just as much damage as the enemy even if they have perfect jamming skills and are getting in perfect range to use it. Now you might say that you can gank fit the damage etc but bottom line is if you counter fit then ewar is easily negated and in fact makes the enemy fleet more vulnerable not less. In the example given above one dead enemy damage is 20% less to worry about while they will only attrite you at 10%.

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Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

ahh, to bad the DEVs have added LoS to interference emitter placement. Your heavy mech would be unable to lock ANYTHING with just two beacons around them.

but well, it was more important to add LoS to them because I used them to shoot down walls....

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Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

God damnit anni that's one of my secret ones!

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Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

whats so secret about IF beacons?
that they not only increase locking time, reduce detection and lower sensor strength by 70% if you manage to cap it out (scaling linear from robots minimum IF level to its max)

oh wait, the effect of interference was nowhere written down, and all you nee to do, is keep your distance.

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Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

I read all of this and have NOT seen one legitimate reason to NOT have LOS (Line Of Sight) on E-WAR. 

It seems the people who are drooling over E-WAR are the ones who probably utilize them the most and consider them OP and therefore loathe the idea that beyond 'Why gropho?  Because Gropho.'  (and Pelistal in general due to missiles) not having a LOS declare that making E-WAR LOS would nerf theiir ability to pull tragic destruction too easy among their targets.

So ... basically ... you're unhappy that someone wants to LOS a unit in an LOS game?  You do realize REMOTE REPAIRERS are LOS also? 

Though I am unsure if Accumulator Transfer is ... (need a check, anyone?)

Just my rant.

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Ville wrote:

I want aoe ECMs w/ no LOS to fight the blob.

In order for this to be calculated properly, you would need to evenly distribute the E-WAR effects among all the affected.  Where, the less the affected amount, the stronger the effect.  Period. 

Also, it seems odd you could get demobbed more then once.  Technically only the stronger should apply and be the effect; as the stronger one easily overrides the weaker and smaller ones.

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Deminyon wrote:

I read all of this and have NOT seen one legitimate reason to NOT have LOS (Line Of Sight) on E-WAR. 

It seems the people who are drooling over E-WAR are the ones who probably utilize them the most and consider them OP

So you reason to change 3.5 yr old mechanic is "because this is a LOS game" ? I don't see an argument here as not-not a reason is not a reason. Also, do you have a Main with some pvp experience as Deminyon has none as far as I can tell. Does that not matter?

Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Deminyon wrote:
Ville wrote:

I want aoe ECMs w/ no LOS to fight the blob.

In order for this to be calculated properly, you would need to evenly distribute the E-WAR effects among all the affected.  Where, the less the affected amount, the stronger the effect.  Period. 

Also, it seems odd you could get demobbed more then once.  Technically only the stronger should apply and be the effect; as the stronger one easily overrides the weaker and smaller ones.

Obvious troll is obvious.

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Re: Suggestion/Discussion: make ewar LOS and AoE

Deminyon wrote:

Though I am unsure if Accumulator Transfer is ... (need a check, anyone?)

Everything regarding energy transfers has LoS since the the FOTM Ictus times, when a single Ictus pilot could just drain everything empty from behind a hill, while beeing shielded at the same time.

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