Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Annihilator wrote:

what do those M1A2 tank drivers in Iraq fear the most: infantry with RPGs and good aming skills.

HA HA HA HA HA! lol

No sir, that is laughably wrong. RPGs are of very little threat to a M1A2 unless they hit the treads.

The thing they fear most is IEDs. Now THOSE can kill a tank.

Oldest player still in the game. Perpetuum for life.
Original Founder of M2S, may it rest in peace. sad
"Hungarian Math" is defined by the dictionary as "Just like normal math, but where each equation ends by dividing the sum by Potato."
-Shoutout to "Stranger Danger" for the "potato" comment.

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

inb4 WW2 reference

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Arga wrote:

Shin,

Dec 2011 - Mechs are expensive and take a lot of EP to drive. Very few are used in PVP, most combat is with light and assult bots because they are cheap; there is lots of cheap battles, and few expensive battle with mechs.

Dec 2012 - Mechs are cheap and everyone has the EP to drive them. They are used in PVP all the time. The Heavy Assualt Tank is expensive and takes 12 months of EP to drive, very few players have them and they are not used in PVP.

The point: The bulk of PVP will always be between cheap bots. There will always be a bot that players are drooling over to drive, but will not be used in general PVP because they are too damn expensive.

As a side note: Its still going to be relative to how much you play though. Even if you have the EP your still going to need NIC to buy and replace your bot, whatever model you are driving. Players that are on 4 hours a day are going to outdistance the 4 hour a week players. OMG.. I'm going to say it... if you want level progression go play wow (I FEEL SO DIRTY!!!  LOL). But seriously hard core players that put in a lot of time are just going to be able to afford better equipment. Casual players will need to join a generous Corp to compete.

You missunderstood the point about the playing time. Playing time = progress time (+ EPs for just paying the fee).  But i think youll need casuals...a lot of casuals and they should also have reasonable target within this game.

A side note to the side note: Cant understand the thing about WOW. Its a completely different but very great game. Im playing it since beta and from the start in a progressive raid guild. They found a great way between pvp and pve, casuals and pro gamers (and yes even for Blizz with multiple teams and high budget it took 2-3 years to get there...and i think that you dont have to reinvent the wheel over and over again).
You played WOW and didnt like it? Ok...but dont be that ignorant..others like it.
You played WOW but didnt managed to get to an serous playing? Well...dont be ignorant.
You never played WOW?....aeh...dont be ignorant.

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Shinain wrote:

You missunderstood the point about the playing time. Playing time = progress time (+ EPs for just paying the fee).  But i think youll need casuals...a lot of casuals and they should also have reasonable target within this game.

A side note to the side note: Cant understand the thing about WOW. Its a completely different but very great game. Im playing it since beta and from the start in a progressive raid guild. They found a great way between pvp and pve, casuals and pro gamers (and yes even for Blizz with multiple teams and high budget it took 2-3 years to get there...and i think that you dont have to reinvent the wheel over and over again).
You played WOW and didnt like it? Ok...but dont be that ignorant..others like it.
You played WOW but didnt managed to get to an serous playing? Well...dont be ignorant.
You never played WOW?....aeh...dont be ignorant.

You make a very good point- casuals may be disappointed if they find that realistically, the best they could do is a light or assault bot. But then if mechs are made more accessible, I think maybe there should be another class that would be more powerful than heavy mechs, just to keep the balance. But that puts us back to square one...

Also , you're right about WoW, it's a fine game, not less challenging in any way. But some people need to feel superior- note that most of them are PvP zealots, too, and you start to understand the mentality of insecurity.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

I played wow from beta until about 6 months ago and the biggest challenge that game managed to throw at me was having to deal with groups of people that don't understand how to overcome scripted events. I would definitely claim that the game is less challenging.

How is it that Mechs are less accessible to casuals? You can farm the money needed to buy one after about 4 hours of farming or less. The only real barrier are your extensions and casuals get those just as fast as those who play all day.

56 (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2010-12-24 18:26:50)

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Savin wrote:

But some people need to feel superior- note that most of them are PvP zealots, too, and you start to understand the mentality of insecurity.

Generalization and mostly inaccurate, but that's not surprising considering the source.  PVP for most real avid PVPers is about having a real challenge, not by fighting an AI, but by outwitting, out maneuvering, and out performing another player/gang.

Unfortunately, (and this is another generalization, but easily seen on these forums) those who are afraid to risk their assets, the carebears, are more concerned about saving their precious pixels, of having more NIC and more toys, with no risk to those assets.  What is the point of having gads of NIC and toys, if you are too afraid to lose them instead of enjoying them?

And by carebears, I do not mean industrialists and miners - just because you like to build things, and tyvm for that, otherwise we would not have bots to PVP in or kill, does not make a carebear.  I know plenty of miners and industrialists willing to combat bot up when needed.  No, it's the ones too afraid to lose anything, of risk, who want nothing but the rewards, and inflate their egos with "look at all my wealth" mentality.

The mentality of insecurity is FEAR.  Try looking in a mirror, you'll see a perfect image of it...

EDIT - spelling and revised isk to NIC ( yea, I know, stEVE infected...)

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Generalization and mostly inaccurate, but that's not surprising considering the source.  PVP for most real avid PVPers is about having a real challenge, not by fighting an AI, but by outwitting, out maneuvering, and out performing another player/gang.

You are correct that for many players, the challenge is the thing. And WoW can be just as challenging: only an idiot would claim otherwise (not surprising, considering the source), for only an idiot would think that such a claim was provable.

You are also correct that insecurity is rooted in fear. Thing is, it's easy to distinguish those who PvP out of fear, and those who PvP for the challenge:

- those who do it from fear need to believe things such as "WoW is for carebears" or are deluded into thinking that they are actually "risking" something in games like EVE and this one. They also get really bent out of shape when someone points out to them.

- those who do it for the challenge don't spend their time making false distinctions on the forum, or feeble attempts to turn an argument back on someone, especially someone who has the upper hand.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Just got myself a Tyrannos. And those medium missiles literally suck compare to my old waspish and its light missiles. Sure, I can tank the bots better, but damage output is lower. I really need to take some backseat time and wait until my EP goes up, so that I can upgrade the bonuses on my mech. I guess I'll have to venture out and find bigger bots to slay. Medium missiles + small bots = not a chance in hell.

It's the same with EVE, I'm afraid. Big missiles have little impact on small ships, even if they stand still. It's odd how a big missile can do so little damage even when a bot is perfectly still. Bigger bots SHOULD be able to be walking machines of doom. But enough of me crying about it, I simply have to venture out and find bigger bots to farm.

Here's hope I don't die! (I wish this game had a test server...)

59 (edited by Lupus Aurelius 2010-12-24 19:12:31)

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Savin wrote:
Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Generalization and mostly inaccurate, but that's not surprising considering the source.  PVP for most real avid PVPers is about having a real challenge, not by fighting an AI, but by outwitting, out maneuvering, and out performing another player/gang.

You are correct that for many players, the challenge is the thing. And WoW can be just as challenging: only an idiot would claim otherwise (not surprising, considering the source), for only an idiot would think that such a claim was provable.

You are also correct that insecurity is rooted in fear. Thing is, it's easy to distinguish those who PvP out of fear, and those who PvP for the challenge:

- those who do it from fear need to believe things such as "WoW is for carebears" or are deluded into thinking that they are actually "risking" something in games like EVE and this one. They also get really bent out of shape when someone points out to them.

- those who do it for the challenge don't spend their time making false distinctions on the forum, or feeble attempts to turn an argument back on someone, especially someone who has the upper hand.

LOL, I never said anything about WOW, my statements were applied to your generalization of PVPers.

Suggest you take you last bulleted item to heart then, and stop posting, or responding to my posts.

PS - this convo has nothing to do with the thread - suggest it gets back on topic, the "Purpose of a Mech"

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Shinain wrote:
Arga wrote:

Shin,

The point: The bulk of PVP will always be between cheap bots. There will always be a bot that players are drooling over to drive, but will not be used in general PVP because they are too damn expensive.

You missunderstood the point about the playing time. Playing time = progress time (+ EPs for just paying the fee).  But i think youll need casuals...a lot of casuals and they should also have reasonable target within this game.

A side note to the side note: Cant understand the thing about WOW. Its a completely different but very great game. Im playing it since beta and from the start in a progressive raid guild. They found a great way between pvp and pve, casuals and pro gamers (and yes even for Blizz with multiple teams and high budget it took 2-3 years to get there...and i think that you dont have to reinvent the wheel over and over again).
You played WOW and didnt like it? Ok...but dont be that ignorant..others like it.
You played WOW but didnt managed to get to an serous playing? Well...dont be ignorant.
You never played WOW?....aeh...dont be ignorant.

I don't think this game or its developers are really worried about keeping casual players.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/p … 24#3410224

Both of you are right. You because the game makes griefing too easy, and while we want it to be a harsh world, it's still just a game.

giving the dev's the benefit of the doubt, they know that making a harsh world is going to keep thier numbers low, because it does make it really difficult for players who aren't serious about putting in an effort.

Look around on the fourms, and you'll not only see me defending WoW but raging a little at its usage. I play WoW, I progrssion raid, and I like the game. People are lazy though, and instead of typing out what they mean, they just say go play wow.

So not to be lazy, and in the context that the devs are not looking to make a simple game;

Wow is a mass market game. They do as much as they can to balance the game for serious and casual players. They add little aura's into ICC that slowly make the Raid easier so that progression raiders can epeen about beating it but sill let the casual players enjoy the content later.

I don't think you're going to see that in this game; hence the continual and irritating reponse of Go Play WoW when agents bring up the issue of watering down the game or making it friendlier to casual players. I don't like it, a better meme would be "Get serious", but serious is harder to spell than wow so I doubt it will catch on.

----

I'd have liked to respond to the actual game issues you had, but everytime I tried you changed subjects.

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

LOL, I never said anything about WOW, my statements were applied to your generalization of PVPers.

So? My generalization still stands, inasmuch as any generalization will stand.

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Suggest you take you last bulleted item to heart then, and stop posting, or responding to my posts.

Why, when it's so easy to take you to school?

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

PS - this convo has nothing to do with the thread - suggest it gets back on topic, the "Purpose of a Mech"

I accept your surrender, and agree.

Now, back to the topic: I agree with Arga.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Unfortunately, (and this is another generalization, but easily seen on these forums) those who are afraid to risk their assets, the carebears, are more concerned about saving their precious pixels, of having more NIC and more toys, with no risk to those assets.  What is the point of having gads of NIC and toys, if you are too afraid to lose them instead of enjoying them?

I've seen serious combat pilots /rage logout after losing a bot... but they are right back on the next day at it again, and agents that lose a mech to npc's while farming simply swear once and quietly come back and loot thier own corpse.

I havn't met any of the /rage quit when they lose an arkhe types, but that's probablly because they are not around long enough.

I would say the players worried about losing assests are those trying to go it solo or small corps; or if you are in a corp that does nothing for you. Its easy to imagine the solo player running missions and grinding NIC, working up through bots and EP to drive a Mech. Are they really going to risk brining it out to beta? I think that falls under the don't risk what you can't afford to lose.

I don't think you are suggesting that they just throw away bots. The risk to reward isn't there for solo players to go to beta, or even for small corp members to bring 2-3 bots to beta just to have a taste of PVP; a very short taste. If your alluding to them going to beta but not coming off the gate, hard to blame them for that, I think that's less afraid of losing pixels and more just not stupid enough to step into a grinder for the thrill of pressing the space bar once and dying.

I will agree that combat pilots that farm tier 1 mobs in a mech fall into the afraid category.

63 (edited by Saha 2010-12-25 01:01:05)

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Arga wrote:

I don't think you are suggesting that they just throw away bots. The risk to reward isn't there for solo players to go to beta, or even for small corp members to bring 2-3 bots to beta just to have a taste of PVP; a very short taste. If your alluding to them going to beta but not coming off the gate, hard to blame them for that, I think that's less afraid of losing pixels and more just not stupid enough to step into a grinder for the thrill of pressing the space bar once and dying.

I will agree that combat pilots that farm tier 1 mobs in a mech fall into the afraid category.

2-3 bots, no. But small gangs of 4-5 can have quite some fun if they know wtf they are doing with their EP, fittings and picking targets.

But it's a closed circle of doom for them. They don't go to beta, means they don't learn, means they can't have fun on beta due to bad skills, poor EP allocation, horrible fits and no knowledge of the map. Very same situation as with mechs. If you don't know what the *** you are doing with it, it's useless and disapointing. Like that enclave guy of "woohoo I can jump into Artemis" and equip it with small lazers, geoscaners, chasis scaners and sintec crap. Thank *** he left sintec small miner out. Otherwise it would have been just a big arkee.

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

is see several fully medium fitted MECHS farming t1 spawns on attalica...

thats obviously NOT the purpose of a mech...

65 (edited by Zhyntil 2010-12-25 01:11:41)

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Annihilator wrote:

is see several fully medium fitted MECHS farming t1 spawns on attalica...

thats obviously NOT the purpose of a mech...

It works though. If it was NOT the purpose of a mech, then few or none would do it......
The cheapest, least risk way to make money is to get the nicest mech/bot you can, and farm the hell out of the T1 spawn points.
The problem with this is not so much that people do it, but that they do it locking the newbs out of the first areas they try to run just out of tutorial.

Who the $#@% is stEvE?

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

i dont think its cheap to kill small rookie mantis with a kain and a tyrannos at all.

the ammo you shoot there is more worth then the loot you get.

at the same place, my gf was with her full-industrial TM-A agent, in a castel and not a single weapon extension above the starter ones, just two ranks in locking time and 3 in sensor connection - and killing those mantis in two to three salvos.

its hard to guess who worked more money efficient.

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Annihilator wrote:

i dont think its cheap to kill small rookie mantis with a kain and a tyrannos at all.

the ammo you shoot there is more worth then the loot you get.

at the same place, my gf was with her full-industrial TM-A agent, in a castel and not a single weapon extension above the starter ones, just two ranks in locking time and 3 in sensor connection - and killing those mantis in two to three salvos.

its hard to guess who worked more money efficient.

If that was true then.......few or none would do it.

Who the $#@% is stEvE?

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Purpose of a Mech?

it's to beat dinosaurs in close combat !

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Blackomen wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

what do those M1A2 tank drivers in Iraq fear the most: infantry with RPGs and good aming skills.

HA HA HA HA HA! lol

No sir, that is laughably wrong. RPGs are of very little threat to a M1A2 unless they hit the treads.

The thing they fear most is IEDs. Now THOSE can kill a tank.

RPG from behind ?

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Zhyntil wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

i dont think its cheap to kill small rookie mantis with a kain and a tyrannos at all.

the ammo you shoot there is more worth then the loot you get.

at the same place, my gf was with her full-industrial TM-A agent, in a castel and not a single weapon extension above the starter ones, just two ranks in locking time and 3 in sensor connection - and killing those mantis in two to three salvos.

its hard to guess who worked more money efficient.

If that was true then.......few or none would do it.

Sorry but what he said was completely true, farming light/assaults in a Mech is a horrible idea. You will do more damage A LOT quicker with cheaper ammo if you stick to assaults. PvE wise Mechs are only good against large mech spawns if you have the proper skills(seismics/precision firing 7). If you don't have your respective skill to 7 then you might as well just use assaults for farming mechs as well.

Here I'll throw an argument at you using the same logic. Mechs suck because my corp has hundreds of them and has had them for weeks, but still we use our assaults for PvP and PvE.

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Snowstyle wrote:
Zhyntil wrote:
Annihilator wrote:

i dont think its cheap to kill small rookie mantis with a kain and a tyrannos at all.

the ammo you shoot there is more worth then the loot you get.

at the same place, my gf was with her full-industrial TM-A agent, in a castel and not a single weapon extension above the starter ones, just two ranks in locking time and 3 in sensor connection - and killing those mantis in two to three salvos.

its hard to guess who worked more money efficient.

If that was true then.......few or none would do it.

Sorry but what he said was completely true, farming light/assaults in a Mech is a horrible idea. You will do more damage A LOT quicker with cheaper ammo if you stick to assaults. PvE wise Mechs are only good against large mech spawns if you have the proper skills(seismics/precision firing 7). If you don't have your respective skill to 7 then you might as well just use assaults for farming mechs as well.

Here I'll throw an argument at you using the same logic. Mechs suck because my corp has hundreds of them and has had them for weeks, but still we use our assaults for PvP and PvE.

Was not arguing that it was a good idea, just there are a fair amount of people doing it......go out there and pay attention a bit and you will see people doing it.....did not say they were right, or smart, just that if it was that bad there would be less or none doing it.

Who the $#@% is stEvE?

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Zhyntil wrote:
Snowstyle wrote:
Zhyntil wrote:

If that was true then.......few or none would do it.

Sorry but what he said was completely true, farming light/assaults in a Mech is a horrible idea. You will do more damage A LOT quicker with cheaper ammo if you stick to assaults. PvE wise Mechs are only good against large mech spawns if you have the proper skills(seismics/precision firing 7). If you don't have your respective skill to 7 then you might as well just use assaults for farming mechs as well.

Here I'll throw an argument at you using the same logic. Mechs suck because my corp has hundreds of them and has had them for weeks, but still we use our assaults for PvP and PvE.

Was not arguing that it was a good idea, just there are a fair amount of people doing it......go out there and pay attention a bit and you will see people doing it.....did not say they were right, or smart, just that if it was that bad there would be less or none doing it.

I know what your trying to say. I'm just trying to point out that your argument is based off of a logical fallacy.

Re: Purpose of a Mech?

Arga wrote:

I don't think this game or its developers are really worried about keeping casual players.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/p … 24#3410224

I think that was from beta (and taken out of context). If I remember correctly Vanguard Dev's used to strut around saying the same thing too. But in the end, nothing you, I, or anyone else says matters. It's all about money and you're taking a big risk going against any set of players. Let alone one of the biggest market for MMO's. Also note-worthy is how the vanguard devs turned on the community when that ship started to sink. For basically "pushing casual players away".