Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

I have to agree. Having a timer, rather than an infinite safe zone makes way more sense.

Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

we all abuse em that's the problem

take yesterday as an example

m2s slowly build numbers at hillmanoc to out gun us so we decide to go sit on the nauwy tele instead.
this is common for us we have 2 or 3 guys show up so we get a couple of guys to geather to check em out , they sit on the tele for hours and hours while they try to muster more people then we get bored of waiting for them to make a move and everyone leaves , they then roam our island and think they have awesome skillz.

maybe the solution is say a 10min syndicate timer on the beta side  so you can get a feel for the island before committing but if you jump back through to the alpha side you cant jump back for say 20mins (im thinking like how wormholes work in eve here)

the only problem i can see from any solution tho is and marked increase in log off traps
so in reality i think the current system is fine as you can keep the belligerents humping the teleporter while the rest of the carebears can get stuff done unmolested

Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

*picture carebears humping resources off in the wilds*

I need to get out more.

Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

lets use last night as an example shall we?

M2S jumps in. we group to engage, they run the hillmanoc and plop out lawn chairs.

we spend half an hour watching them, and they simply jump in another group, and split them off, knowing full well we can't leave the group on the gate, and we didn't have enough to withstand a two sided attack, so there we sat.

Without the safe zone, we could've popped them where they sat, or at least moved off if they chose to sat on alpha, and gotten half the squad dealt with while they were teleporting in.

Also the scouting this is obvious garbage, and frankly I'm amazed that made it past beta but I don't know. That being said, a timer, with a movement/area based forfeit penalty would be perfect. it involved risk, keeps people from running 1000 miles away before they can be attacked, and means jumping afk isn't possible.

Also, if anyone jumps into a beta island, and expects it to not be camped ( at least by a scout ) even now, they're in for a surprise, wouldn't you all agree?

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Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

Protection should last 10 seconds longer than molecular instability. It should feel dangerous going to beta, but gate camping, while an important strategy should not mean free kills.

Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

You almost ganked a Termis last night

Key word being 'almost'. There were several Termis that could have been ganked last night. Two of them were legitimately protected (4 or 5 combat bots vs. a solo cameleon). One Termis was mining ridiculously close to the outpost and could just zap to safety no matter how many times we caught him with his pants down. Which was several times. Termis with no pants should be dead.

It's a simple idea, really. If you want to mine with a Termis on beta islands, then there should be no way to be 100% safe (without a proper escort).

Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

Killer Prawn wrote:

Protection should last 10 seconds longer than molecular instability. It should feel dangerous going to beta, but gate camping, while an important strategy should not mean free kills.

Agree.

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

L1fe3looD wrote:

lets use last night as an example shall we?

M2S jumps in. we group to engage, they run the hillmanoc and plop out lawn chairs.

we spend half an hour watching them, and they simply jump in another group, and split them off, knowing full well we can't leave the group on the gate, and we didn't have enough to withstand a two sided attack, so there we sat.

Without the safe zone, we could've popped them where they sat, or at least moved off if they chose to sat on alpha, and gotten half the squad dealt with while they were teleporting in.

Also the scouting this is obvious garbage, and frankly I'm amazed that made it past beta but I don't know. That being said, a timer, with a movement/area based forfeit penalty would be perfect. it involved risk, keeps people from running 1000 miles away before they can be attacked, and means jumping afk isn't possible.

Also, if anyone jumps into a beta island, and expects it to not be camped ( at least by a scout ) even now, they're in for a surprise, wouldn't you all agree?

It made it past beta because this new 'protection zone' stuff is very new.  There used to just be 1km ranged police towers that would insta-pop any flagged player.  These were placed at alpha teleports and 3/4 around beta terminals.

These new safe zones came in like a month or so before release, so there wasnt a ton of testing done on them.

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Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

Reefpirate wrote:

You almost ganked a Termis last night

Key word being 'almost'. There were several Termis that could have been ganked last night. Two of them were legitimately protected (4 or 5 combat bots vs. a solo cameleon). One Termis was mining ridiculously close to the outpost and could just zap to safety no matter how many times we caught him with his pants down. Which was several times. Termis with no pants should be dead.

It's a simple idea, really. If you want to mine with a Termis on beta islands, then there should be no way to be 100% safe (without a proper escort).

I'm glad to know your vision is myopic. I will be sure to just leave afk a termis far from the station next time so it fits your style of game play.

Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

Gremrod wrote:

Figure what out? Any player sitting in the current save zone of a teleporter is 100% safe. Nothing to figure out.

Thanks, now I see what Neoxx meant about the "no thinking" thing.

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Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

I dont have any issue with a timer on leaving stations or going through gate, I think they shouldn't be much longer then the timer to re-enter a station or a gate. So they ether get out or stay but no perma safe area

Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

Just use Fisher King's plan:

Both gangs send 1 champion to do a 1 vs 1 duel. Loosing party withdraws from the tp.

38 (edited by Saha 2010-12-23 21:26:39)

Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

Safety timer on Alpha->Beta TPs, no safe zones (even beta terminal), docking and teleporting "process" takes 5 seconds and is interupted if shot.

Landmass of islands is small as it is, taking into consideration availability of 7 teleports and 4 stations as well as speed makes current PvP "will I catch him before he safe zones/docks/teleports" and "will I reach the safe zone/dock/port".

Nobody is engaging even in close call fights besides 3-4 corps. There's no point. If you know you'll win you chase, if you know you'll lose you dock, if numbers are even you sit on safe zone and wait for reinforcement. Only *** or people who make huge unforgiving mistakes die.

39 (edited by Arga 2010-12-23 22:39:07)

Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

Saha wrote:

Safety timer on Alpha->Beta TPs, no safe zones (even beta terminal), docking and teleporting "process" takes 5 seconds and is interupted if shot.

Simpler idea.

Beta transporters are 1-way from alpha.

Outbound teleports, which go to the same alpha point, are 1000 Meters away from the inbound.

No safe zones, but no restriction on using teleporter. Flagged or not, if you live to reach the outbound, you can leave.

Edit: 1200 meters away, or outside of landmark range if that changes

Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

Savin wrote:
Gremrod wrote:

Figure what out? Any player sitting in the current save zone of a teleporter is 100% safe. Nothing to figure out.

Thanks, now I see what Neoxx meant about the "no thinking" thing.

Well, Neoxx can be hard headed and have "no thinking" moments at times too. big_smile

John 3:16 - Timothy 2:23

41 (edited by BoostHungry 2010-12-24 09:11:08)

Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

/signed

No safe area.
Extended safe timer. (I would say 7 or 8 seconds shorter than instability - large sensor boosted gang can one shot target but that's the only risk)
Timer drops if you move too far.

Just like undocking from a station in Eve 0.0.  Your invul long enough to redock, but if you try to warp your vulnerable immediately.

Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

large sensor boosted gang can one shot target but that's the only risk)

is a two mesmer group large?

Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

Neoxx wrote:

Keep the safe area but have it based on a timer.  If you leave the safe area you will be vulnerable like you currently are, but you can still go back into the safe area until that timer expires.

Or just have a timer that expires when it runs out, or if you move, or if you target lock someone.

Should the timer be longer or slightly shorter than your molecular instability?

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Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

http://forums.perpetuum-online.com/topi … rt/page/2/

This is what I just brainstormed:

1) Right after you teleport to beta island, you will get only 90% invulnerability to any damage which drops down by 10% each 10 seconds automatically. So after 90 seconds you have no invulnerability to any damage. Plus same would go for any Damage you make 10% damage right after you teleport and it goes up to 100% in 90 seconds.

It doesnt need to be 10% per 10 seconds, it also doesnt have to be linear.

2) Basicly same idea just without the timer, but added the "Range of a teleporter control"
So if you are 0 m within the teleporter, you recieve 10% damage incomming, but also hit for only 10% of your damage. Within 200m you would get 50% and hit for 50%, etc...

Pros: Takes out the Arkhe spies out of game. Makes the squad vs squad fights even

Cons: Suggest any, I have no idea.

Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

Neoxx wrote:

It made it past beta because this new 'protection zone' stuff is very new.  There used to just be 1km ranged police towers that would insta-pop any flagged player.  These were placed at alpha teleports and 3/4 around beta terminals.

These new safe zones came in like a month or so before release, so there wasnt a ton of testing done on them.

Ah, I wasn't aware of that. Good to know then, perhaps at least they're not ignoring the issue per se.

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Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

nope, they are not ignoring the issue, it just takes time, or m2s to find a very unbalanced way to exploit it. (like their Suicide ganking in beta turned the alpha island from only 50% protected police zone to 100% non-pvp syndicate protection zone)

Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

Removing safe zones/timers with no allotment for loading times/crashes isn't the best idea.

Couple ideas.

1) Put "carebear" buff not only on bots that port through, but any bot within 1000m of a terminal on a beta outpost when someone ports through.  Prevents all combat with other bears for x seconds. 

2) There's nothing that says one input can't have many outputs.  Include "randomizer" element in transport terminals to beta islands that places people who port to a beta in one of six or so landing spots of x-distance apart.  Very low safe timer (only to allow for computer load).  Obviously, if a corp wants to go through as a unit, allow squad leaders to check a "port as unit" option that would funnel all squaddies to one location.

3) Stronger corp leaders.  Why in the f*** is there so much Epriton on the market, and for under 10 Nic???  Why are corp leaders not outright banning the sale to the market?  Trade it between established corps that can maintain an island presence, don't sell it to scrubs like me.  You give me no reason to ever join a corp and go get some because of your greed and weak leadership - I can buy everything I find too dangerous to get myself and still make a killing.  (And speaking of, why isn't seller listed on market?)

The second part of that is the devs need to make it a much higher priority to incorporate more harvestables on beta islands only, and more minerals as well, and change existing high level recipes without notice to include the new mats. 



Finally, should give the Devs some patience on this.  It's pretty difficult to find an amicable solution that most sides can even tolerate, much less enjoy. 

Festive yuletidey greetings.

Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

Marus wrote:

Stronger corp leaders.  Why in the f*** is there so much Epriton on the market, and for under 10 Nic???  Why are corp leaders not outright banning the sale to the market?  Trade it between established corps that can maintain an island presence, don't sell it to scrubs like me.  You give me no reason to ever join a corp and go get some because of your greed and weak leadership - I can buy everything I find too dangerous to get myself and still make a killing.  (And speaking of, why isn't seller listed on market?)

This!

In another thread, I lamented that none of our existing corps is showing any creativity, and that their "reputations" were mere puffery.

IF any existing corps were a bit more creative, they'd spend less time whining about safe zones and arkhes, and more time creating a stranglehold on epitron. But they aren't, so I'm raking in the profits with absolutely no risk at all.

As independents, we should be forced either to join a corp OR strike a bargain with a larger corp in order to gain access to this stuff. PvP-centered corps especially should be considering this: why should they mine and craft when others could save them time, and do it for them?

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
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Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

Savin wrote:

In another thread, I lamented that none of our existing corps is showing any creativity, and that their "reputations" were mere puffery.

Spurious arguement at best in that post, and also has no bearing on this topic.

Savin wrote:

IF any existing corps were a bit more creative, they'd spend less time whining about safe zones and arkhes, and more time creating a stranglehold on epitron. But they aren't, so I'm raking in the profits with absolutely no risk at all.

Actually, you have plenty of risk.  Your whole production cycle is based upon a material that you have no control of, and at any time, that faucet can be shut down, or jacked up so high as to make your production unprofitable. 

Currently, market PVP between those who do control the epiton flow is pretty fierce, so prices are low.  Also, there is an alliance that basically said, hey all y'all, come to our island to make your wealth.  So now, instead of 3 or 4 corps controlling the flow, you have multiple ten's of corps, all trying to fatten the wallets. But if, and when, that changes, and it will, you may be singing a different tune.

Savin wrote:

As independents, we should be forced either to join a corp OR strike a bargain with a larger corp in order to gain access to this stuff.

Well, you got one right.  Yup, really should be a total stranglehold atm, but as stated above, market PVP - who can grab most of the market share.  But I reluctantly agree with you here...

Savin wrote:

PvP-centered corps especially should be considering this: why should they mine and craft when others could save them time, and do it for them?

Because when you are self sufficient, you are not dependant on the market, and surplus can be used to add to the corp wallet.  Sound economic sense, in a properly run corp, there should be little to no need to buy anything, if you have a slice of the beta pie.

In the gods we trust, all others bring data!

Re: Beta islands should have no safe area.

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Spurious arguement at best in that post, and also has no bearing on this topic.

Ok, try "preview reply" before posting- that way, you might catch mistakes like "arguement," and thus you'll be more successful in being taken seriously.

Now, you really should have someone explain "spurious" to you in order to avoid future embarrassment. The argument was sound, and still stands: just because nobody was able to provide information to the contrary does not mean it is invalid.

Moreover, it has "bearing" because I explicitly give it that bearing in the following sentences, and am about to do it again in this post.

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Actually, you have plenty of risk.  Your whole production cycle is based upon a material that you have no control of, and at any time, that faucet can be shut down, or jacked up so high as to make your production unprofitable.

This is precisely my point. I have no risk at all because nobody is doing this. Let me spell it out for you:

1. No corps are exercising their ability to control the flow of epitron, [there are plenty reasons for this, but enumerating them would be spurious (see? not so hard to use big_smile)].

2. Because of this, any 'risk' I have is purely theoretical, not real.

3. Therefore, I may claim to have no risk at all.

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Currently, market PVP between those who do control the epiton flow is pretty fierce, so prices are low.  Also, there is an alliance that basically said, hey all y'all, come to our island to make your wealth.  So now, instead of 3 or 4 corps controlling the flow, you have multiple ten's of corps, all trying to fatten the wallets. But if, and when, that changes, and it will, you may be singing a different tune.

Re-read what I wrote, and you will see that my point is related to this: obviously nobody is skilled, powerful, or clever enough (choose whichever you prefer) to change this situation.

You are right, there is an alliance that opened its island to all comers, and this helps to lower the cost of epitron a great deal. This demonstrates that either a) no corp wants to stop them (for whatever reason), or b) the corps that do want to stop them are not capable of it. Which is yours?

Again, this the point I made above and elsewhere: no corps stand out as powerful enough to affect the mining of epitron, and no corps stand out as clever enough to manipulate the market.

Lupus Aurelius wrote:

Because when you are self sufficient, you are not dependant on the market, and surplus can be used to add to the corp wallet.  Sound economic sense, in a properly run corp, there should be little to no need to buy anything, if you have a slice of the beta pie.

No, this is true only to a limited extent: you can be self-sufficient, but only at the cost of superlative performance in other areas. In other words, if your corp tries to meet all of its needs internally, it will be able to do so, but only at the cost of success in other areas.

You'll note that most successful armies don't make their own bullets.

All those who are merciful with the cruel will come to be cruel to the merciful - Kohelet Rabbah 7:16

"My transaction log shows all my NIC was from selling kernals.  All of it."
"Savin's outrage tears are the best tears." - Anonymous ***