1 (edited by Mr Swine 2014-05-17 15:11:49)

Topic: My web site for prices.

Here's the link.

Right now it looks pretty plain, here's a (new) screenie: http://i.imgur.com/v85WsPh.png
Prices are uploaded to it from CSV export, I am in process of making an automated uploader which grabs market CSV's as they go. There are only raws there for now, but I'll add the whole tree eventually.

At this point, you probably want to ask me: So why should I use your web site when I can just open the market?

Here's the answer: Because market is incomplete. I'm planning a feature which would allow you to mix personal orders with market orders. Personal orders will be created from export of your storage, not the market page, and you will be able to set your own price for those. They will be shown near the market orders with your name to contact for acquiring the said item, so you can just have a private chat with your clients and trade your items without putting them on the market where you can't use them. This approach would also make it possible to trade CTs and special materials (which don't have a market page) in a market fashion.

So, basically, you would just have to set up a container, put stuff you'd like to sell there, click export, then click market uploader to push it to web site - you'll be directed to a page with the list of items you just uploaded where you can set the price for them (of course, with market hints), select your terminal/outpost, and viola, your offers are available for everyone to pm you in-game asking for items. (And if you don't like that, maybe just put your items on the market, eh?)

Re: My web site for prices.

Already suggest in-game but separate alpha and beta. Make the terminal changeable as well so you can look at other places than just Shinj.

Re: My web site for prices.

Alexander wrote:

Already suggest in-game but separate alpha and beta. Make the terminal changeable as well so you can look at other places than just Shinj.

Separating alpha and beta, yes, will do.
Changing terminals were planned from the beginning.

Re: My web site for prices.

Update 1 has hit the server.
- CSS has arrived. Now 46% less ugly!
- Anything which isn't Alpha Terminal or Main Terminal is having a different background color.
- Ability to change home terminal. Doesn't have gui yet, but here's a link for Tellesis as base (and you can edit it for your own base).

Re: My web site for prices.

While I work on the next iteration, there are few requests I'd like to make to devs about csv export columns on market.

1) Order id. It would be a great help in tracking orders! I'd make a feature allowing people to subscribe to certain market orders and receive notifications about their status - like stuff being purchased, or when a "better" order outbidding them appears.

2) Corp orders. They are differentiated by color on the market view, but in csv there's no indication if the certain order is corp-only or public. This is one of the blockers which prevents me from releasing csv exports automatic uploader to users outside my own corp, because it'll be like the glitched market we had just a few days ago, showing corp orders outside. Currently I edit csv's before uploading to get rid of in-corp orders manually, and planning a function to export corp-only orders separately to filter them out, but that's a crutch hack.

3) Automatic export? Subscription model? Server API for market? Maybe a client API via some form of IPC? Would love to discuss any of those.

Re: My web site for prices.

Mr Swine wrote:

1) Order id. It would be a great help in tracking orders! I'd make a feature allowing people to subscribe to certain market orders and receive notifications about their status - like stuff being purchased, or when a "better" order outbidding them appears.

The attributes of an order should usually be enough to track them, depending on the frequency of your updates. Set theory, look it up yarr

Mr Swine wrote:

2) Corp orders. They are differentiated by color on the market view, but in csv there's no indication if the certain order is corp-only or public. This is one of the blockers which prevents me from releasing csv exports automatic uploader to users outside my own corp, because it'll be like the glitched market we had just a few days ago, showing corp orders outside. Currently I edit csv's before uploading to get rid of in-corp orders manually, and planning a function to export corp-only orders separately to filter them out, but that's a crutch hack.

This is easy - orders that don't appear on every's user export are corporation orders.

Re: My web site for prices.

Doek wrote:
Mr Swine wrote:

1) Order id. It would be a great help in tracking orders! I'd make a feature allowing people to subscribe to certain market orders and receive notifications about their status - like stuff being purchased, or when a "better" order outbidding them appears.

The attributes of an order should usually be enough to track them, depending on the frequency of your updates. Set theory, look it up yarr

Composite ID's/keys can be evil sometimes wink

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

8 (edited by Mr Swine 2014-05-20 13:53:26)

Re: My web site for prices.

Doek wrote:

The attributes of an order should usually be enough to track them, depending on the frequency of your updates. Set theory, look it up yarr

Oh please. Let's say there are two orders actively outbidding each other by prices while also getting purchased from. The only thing I can track them from here are location and expiration, and I still don't know if expiration changes on order update, while I surely cannot track them by location alone.
Then, by pure chance, 9 days after 10-day order has been set, within a minute 1-day order gets set up. Expiration always has 00 in seconds so it must be within a minute. Those 2 orders will have the same expiration, could have same terminal and same commodity, and even same price - what now? What if somebody does that on purpose (it's not that hard)?

Of course I know tracking by other attributes is possible, but very unreliable and possibly exploitable way to do so.

Doek wrote:

This is easy - orders that don't appear on every's user export are corporation orders.

Then we get ten users from the same corp in a row for some reason, and they all have it. Unlike the previous point, that's a compete no.

P.S> btw we have a domain name now, welcome http://market.servegame.com/

Re: My web site for prices.

Well, people can change their exports at any point either way, so in the grand scheme of things it doesn't seem to  make sense to ask for features while you can put some time in yourself instead.

Have people send their corp tag with if you're doing an automatic uploader. Doubt there's any out there who would want to see their corp listings show up outside the game.

10 (edited by Mr Swine 2014-05-20 15:06:47)

Re: My web site for prices.

Doek wrote:

Well, people can change their exports at any point either way, so in the grand scheme of things it doesn't seem to  make sense to ask for features while you can put some time in yourself instead.

Have people send their corp tag with if you're doing an automatic uploader. Doubt there's any out there who would want to see their corp listings show up outside the game.

Even if there's corp tag, it'll take another corp to upload and the order can be simply fulfilled or canceled by the moment. So we can't show any orders presuming they're corporate ones, and have to throttle until confirmation they're not, in which case there's both a huge delay in presentation and room for errors.

I can put some time in tracking, but as I said, corp/noncorp orders problem has no practical solution without asking devs for a flag. That, or only permit uploads from NPC corp agents... but I fear they can make corp orders too.

ED: I have a few ideas against fraudulent/edited exports too, so don't be hasty in saying people can edit their exports...

Re: My web site for prices.

'Throttling' until confirmation does does have an added advantage of counteracting fraudulent uploads even more. Besides, you probably want a moving average for this, so timely data is very relative.

Re: My web site for prices.

Doek wrote:

'Throttling' until confirmation does does have an added advantage of counteracting fraudulent uploads even more. Besides, you probably want a moving average for this, so timely data is very relative.

First, throttling has no immediate value, which is, for me, more important than moving average. I can still have moving average with corp orders being sorted out while having full immediate value, which is a justification for a request.

Second, throttling does nothing about fraudulent uploads.

Re: My web site for prices.

Mr Swine wrote:
Doek wrote:

'Throttling' until confirmation does does have an added advantage of counteracting fraudulent uploads even more. Besides, you probably want a moving average for this, so timely data is very relative.

First, throttling has no immediate value, which is, for me, more important than moving average. I can still have moving average with corp orders being sorted out while having full immediate value, which is a justification for a request.

Second, throttling does nothing about fraudulent uploads.

Okay, so 'throttling' (that's me quoting it again), or rather data reconciliation, is pretty much the only method of validating this data without some kind of authority in place. But you seem to have a pretty good idea on how to proceed, I will say you don't have me convinced yet based on your current proof of concept cool

Re: My web site for prices.

Doek wrote:

Okay, so 'throttling' (that's me quoting it again), or rather data reconciliation, is pretty much the only method of validating this data without some kind of authority in place. But you seem to have a pretty good idea on how to proceed, I will say you don't have me convinced yet based on your current proof of concept cool

I'm operating under goodwill assumption. Amount of fraudulent uploads should not be overwhelming, so we can have post-factum reconciliation.

Can always reconsider, you know, software is soft.

Re: My web site for prices.

The killboard didn't work with people parsed killmails, why would this work? Trading PVP is brutal too.

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

Re: My web site for prices.

Norrdec wrote:

The killboard didn't work with people parsed killmails, why would this work? Trading PVP is brutal too.

Because it has me. Something killboard will never have.

Re: My web site for prices.

Mr Swine wrote:
Norrdec wrote:

The killboard didn't work with people parsed killmails, why would this work? Trading PVP is brutal too.

Because it has me. Something killboard will never have.

With this kind of attitude you should be in management and not website building/development smile

<GargajCNS> we maim to please

Re: My web site for prices.

Norrdec wrote:
Mr Swine wrote:
Norrdec wrote:

The killboard didn't work with people parsed killmails, why would this work? Trading PVP is brutal too.

Because it has me. Something killboard will never have.

With this kind of attitude you should be in management and not website building/development smile

Sounds hard. But if it can keep me away from killboards, I guess I'll give it a try...